(Update) DM Decision: Player mistake- what would you do

[Ferrix]

See, as you described the pentagon shaped lines drawn in crimson ink I was thinking more along the lines of summoning, demon containment, etc. I probably would have walked around, but I know some people who might have walked through it. It never screamed pit trap to me until you mentioned it.

Plus with an endless pit, what says the other players won't go on an odd rescue mission. Could be an interesting time to play with wierd gravity/time rules and add an element to the game. Long as the rogue has rations, etc. she could survive falling for some time.

 

[Numion]

See, as you described the pentagon shaped lines drawn in crimson ink I was thinking more along the lines of summoning, demon containment, etc. I probably would have walked around, but I know some people who might have walked through it. It never screamed pit trap to me until you mentioned it.

Yeah, I thought it pretty stupid for someone to mark a trap with crimson ink. Kinda jumps out at you.

But one of the rules for adventuring is not to mess with penta-anythings radiating evil, so I guess she had it coming :\

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well ...

Sometimes stuff that's obvious to you isn't obvious to somebody else.

Heck, -I- wouldn't have figured a pentagram was a pit trap.

Sounds like the player has a different style than you do. I know I, for one, get bored at interminable traps and explorations. When I run games, I tend to provide maps for areas that would involve an hour of mapping just to get across. I like a more narrative style in that regard, punctuated by "set piece" moments of tension.

So if you're dragging people through five hours of cavern-mapping with a fight at the end, maybe she's digging her eyes out from boredom by that point.

I know my wife doesn't like "just battles". She either likes having lots of toys to play with (putting together terrain, minis, props, etc) or just pure role-playing with NPCs and narration. If we're playing out a fight with a drawn map and a few minis, she'll wander off physically and I'll have to run her character. Take the same fight, build a castle out of styro and give her a Harry Potter wand to wave about when she's casting spells, she's a happy camper. -I- never knew this, and -I- married her.

Maybe you can try mixing things up a little more. Maybe talk to her about it, but from conversations with my wife, I'd have STILL never figured out what made her tick had it just not come to pass via outside forces.

--fje

 

[stevelabny]

I very well might have done the same thing as the character.

Why?

1> "There's a big seven headed dragon toasting party members and breathing fire everywhere" Other party members are trying to hide. If the wizard, fighter and cleric are hiding from the 7 headed dragon, there's nothing the ROGUE can do. Rogue's are best for sneak attacks (usually against humanoid opponents) and crafty tricks in combat... time to go look for a trick.

2> The pentagram radiates evil. I don't know what it is but i KNOW its not a pit trap. Pit traps aren't evil. Pit traps are holes in the ground. Holes in the ground don't have alignments. Well maybe the Hellmouth or other such planar gateway has an alignment, but not a regular pit.

3> If the party can't defeat the dragon, we need some help. In a dungeon, there might not be much help. The EVIL pentagram? Probably some sort of summoning or conjuring device. Wouldn't it be nice if I could summon up some vile creature to trick into taking out the dragon? Sure I might "owe" them, but it gives me a character arc for the future. For the NOW it helps me ensure that I will have a future, as I pull the trick out my sleeve to help win the day.

Now if you told me the pentagram teleported me into the home of the devil king who then ate me for breakfast, I would deal with it. If you told me the EVIL pentagram was a pit trap, I'd severely question what the heck was going on.

So unless you have a real good reason why the pit trap was EVIL, I suggest you change it to not be a pit trap but something more along the lines of what the rest of us seem to expect it might be. Unless you really want to play the type of game that just had random open bottomless pits around.

Also, pit traps usually have Reflex saves, did the rogue who is high level enough to be facing a 7 headed dragon REALLY blow their reflex save?

I'm baffled.

 

[DonTadow]

I very well might have done the same thing as the character.

Why?

1> "There's a big seven headed dragon toasting party members and breathing fire everywhere" Other party members are trying to hide. If the wizard, fighter and cleric are hiding from the 7 headed dragon, there's nothing the ROGUE can do. Rogue's are best for sneak attacks (usually against humanoid opponents) and crafty tricks in combat... time to go look for a trick.

2> The pentagram radiates evil. I don't know what it is but i KNOW its not a pit trap. Pit traps aren't evil. Pit traps are holes in the ground. Holes in the ground don't have alignments. Well maybe the Hellmouth or other such planar gateway has an alignment, but not a regular pit.

3> If the party can't defeat the dragon, we need some help. In a dungeon, there might not be much help. The EVIL pentagram? Probably some sort of summoning or conjuring device. Wouldn't it be nice if I could summon up some vile creature to trick into taking out the dragon? Sure I might "owe" them, but it gives me a character arc for the future. For the NOW it helps me ensure that I will have a future, as I pull the trick out my sleeve to help win the day.

Now if you told me the pentagram teleported me into the home of the devil king who then ate me for breakfast, I would deal with it. If you told me the EVIL pentagram was a pit trap, I'd severely question what the heck was going on.

So unless you have a real good reason why the pit trap was EVIL, I suggest you change it to not be a pit trap but something more along the lines of what the rest of us seem to expect it might be. Unless you really want to play the type of game that just had random open bottomless pits around.

Also, pit traps usually have Reflex saves, did the rogue who is high level enough to be facing a 7 headed dragon REALLY blow their reflex save?

I'm baffled.

The Pit trap is a portal to a hell deminsion where there is nothing. Stepping on the trap opens the floor (think quick quick quick sand) and sends that person through. The player didn't just step on the trap, they jumped in the center of it. And lets think. Even if something is radiating evil. I won't think its a pit trap, but I'd be cautious of it. My point is, when dealing with evil things, shouldn't pc be somewhat careful. Even more ironic was what she left on my forum last week. "I think the party should proceed very very carefully the rest of the trip down here". Plus the entire balcony area had several open doors and rooms she could have ran into (where other party members had gone).

I'll be honest. All of your suggestions are valid, but they involve investigation. Not taking a leap right on the center of the pentagram. The player was in no danger once she ran up the stairs (it was proven a couple rounds previously that the beast could not leave the lower area. The player was on a balcony surronding the lower area and well into the second floor. The hall with the pentagram was a good 100 ft. from the staircase, she was safe. As a matter off act, this character was never in any danger. She had been on the balcony the whole time. I could understand if she at least searched a bit, or the opposite, was so scared she ran straight across. Or she looked for some type of trigger to operate a summoning device. But she said her intention was to jump right on the center of the pentagram. She was not suppose to get a reflex save (she jumped right in the middle with nothing to hold on to) . But I gave her one, which she failed (she rolled a 5+11) 16 was below the 23 needed.

Also, to say the character is a traditional rogue is an understatment. She acts like the rogue for the party, but she is part scout/rogue/bounty hunter. Giving her a good base attack and making her somewhat effective in combat.

I wouldn't have thought it was a pit trap in the game. But if i knew it was evil I'd have been cautious though. The building had already proven to have construct walls and floors that were evil and alive. It also could have been an illusion. I guess my train of thought is that it could have been a lot of BAD things on the thing that radiates dire evil.

In hindsight it looked like a suicide attempt. And I was willing to walk away with that theory if not the player had wrote me before she found out the fate of her character, and asked me a legnthy email about how several of her bows and arrows worked and how she could do several of her abilities.

 

[DonTadow]

Well ...

Sometimes stuff that's obvious to you isn't obvious to somebody else.

Heck, -I- wouldn't have figured a pentagram was a pit trap.

Sounds like the player has a different style than you do. I know I, for one, get bored at interminable traps and explorations. When I run games, I tend to provide maps for areas that would involve an hour of mapping just to get across. I like a more narrative style in that regard, punctuated by "set piece" moments of tension.

So if you're dragging people through five hours of cavern-mapping with a fight at the end, maybe she's digging her eyes out from boredom by that point.

I know my wife doesn't like "just battles". She either likes having lots of toys to play with (putting together terrain, minis, props, etc) or just pure role-playing with NPCs and narration. If we're playing out a fight with a drawn map and a few minis, she'll wander off physically and I'll have to run her character. Take the same fight, build a castle out of styro and give her a Harry Potter wand to wave about when she's casting spells, she's a happy camper. -I- never knew this, and -I- married her.

Maybe you can try mixing things up a little more. Maybe talk to her about it, but from conversations with my wife, I'd have STILL never figured out what made her tick had it just not come to pass via outside forces.

--fje

In d and d, you learn to proceed with caution on certain things. I want to make sure I am describing it as i described it in game. Their are torches on the wall. In the initial description I describe a pentagram in crimson colloring on the blood. (It was blood). She asks if she detects evil. I tell her radiates some serious evil. She doesnt say she's going by it, seraching it, trying to look at it a bit more. She's the tra[ finder of the party, I would have suspected that she'd check it for traps or make a search check. She has even built her character to be one of those investigative bounty hunter types. Her very next action was "I want ot jump right in the center of it. I'm going to leap up and jump in the middle. I ask her a couple times to make sure in that DM "what?" kinda voice.

I"m not big on putting maps in random spots on floors. I usually seal it to doors, stairs and things that are obvious.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

DonTadow, you've posted, what, 7 rants on this particular player?

Just kick her out of your group and be done with it.

And pit trap? I wouldn't have guessed that.

 

[Baramay]

My first thought is, how many times have you talked to her about her characters decisons?

How kind are your when characters do something foolish. Do you fudge rolls or do you let the dice fall where they may?

Her behavior is not unheard of. In early DnD Gygax era, Robilar freed 9 demigods when in a similar situation. I think that trumps killing onself.

In Dragon 290 page 8, Jesse Decker describes a gaming session with 3 veterans of the industry hosted by Monte Cook. He descibes the group as retreating forward. In other words rushing into new areas without regard for their lives. Perhaps something many would consider stupid. I would not do that in real life. But for them it was fun and exciting, I don't think for one minute any of them would have complained if their character had died.

Sometimes bold actions are heroic, sometimes they get you killed. Live with the consequences.

 

[WayneLigon]

Now I have a problem. I hate rolling up characters with this player. She's a headache in the character creation process. She tries to sneak things in that I won't catch, which means I have to carefully examine her characters and figure out how they fit into the campaign. Part of me doesnt feel like going through it.

How exactly can she manage to 'sneak things in'? Since she seems to be such a problem I'd ask her what race and class she wants to play, then build the character myself and hand it to her.

 

[DonTadow]

How exactly can she manage to 'sneak things in'? Since she seems to be such a problem I'd ask her what race and class she wants to play, then build the character myself and hand it to her.

Sigh:: I;m going to have to have another serious talk with the player. I've done all the previous advice, talking ot the husband, talking to hte player. She always feigns (ahh 3rd edition is so different than second). She also seems to be trying, but after a couple sessions of quietness she errupts with something odd.

I'd love to boot her, maybe my thread shoudl be when and how do you boot a player.

Her first character I just glanced over it and didnt ralize she gave herself 3 more feats than she was suppose to have. She also created spells that broke the spell system.

The second character... well that was a ranted thread in its own as the character kept asking to play charachters from restricted races.