Update SRD - Critters

Re: Re: Re: Missing creatures

Paradigm said:
This does put a halt to 4 of our 5 next essential books, but only 1 of the 4 has had any energy put into it.

Yeah, the good news is that instead of worshipping the Slaad, the Ssethregorans of Arcanis will have to worship something more chaotic and lizard-like - the mutable Del'kaan perhaps? (insert description of giant lizard-like creatures with a random number of limbs that move like multi-legged centaurs with more arms - they come in many varieties and have a strange internal evolutionary ladder that a particular member of the species may climb, with many seemingly random forks along the way).
 

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Kamikaze Midget said:
If WotC wants to be a bit of a bad-guy by retaining things that are aparently essential PI for them, we can be a bit of a bad-guy by making our own generic knock-offs. We can make our own Faygo versions of these Coke and Pepsi products.

No problem. :D

Actually after going back over one of the earlier discussions on the OGL list I found the following posted by Ryan which might shed some light as to why:

1) You can't do what you just suggested (at least not the way you stated it).

2) Why these creatures were probably taken out of the SRD...

Please forgive the length of this quote, but I didn't want to cut anything...

Originally posted by Ryan

> Ryan, is this an oversight or is it intentional?

When preparing the monster sections of the SRD, I tried to remove all specific physical descriptions of the creatures. I did that because it would be very hard for a publisher to understand the difference between creating a derivative work based on WotC's illustration, and creating a derivative work based on a physical description. The former is a copyright infringement, the latter would be standard use of the OGL.

The SRD is drafted with an eye towards making it as easy as possible to tell a publisher "if you use what's in the SRD and ignore D&D, you >will< comply with the OGL, and the d20 System Trademark License, and won't infringe WotC's copyrights or trademarks".

Thus, if you want to create illustrations for creatures in the SRD, you need to create them from whole cloth, not by starting with the description in the Monster Manual. For most creatures, that's neither hard to do, nor very time consuming. For a handful, it's both. For most of the creatures, the illustrations you're likely to create will be recognizable to the average gamer, because those monsters are drawn from myth and legend and have commonly accepted forms and shapes. For the handful that don't, you are a bit out of luck. (Although, as I said before, they could be black-boxed. If you started with someone who had never seen an illustration of a Mind-Flayer, and gave them the SRD
description, and they gave you back an illustration of an octopus-headed humanoid, you'd be in the clear, since your work was not derivative of WotC's copyright).

> Is it the INTENT of WOTC to maintain character copyright over
> the physical descriptions of these creatures?

Here's the problem. WotC doesn't know what creatures are original to D&D, what creatures have names from myth or legend that are original D&D "versions" that are so unique as to consititute a whole new copyright, and what creatures are public domain. Various people in the company (and in TSR) have rendered their opinions on the matter in the past, and
they're almost all wrong - the reason is that TSR did not have a system for tracking the design inspirations for D&D and thus cannot rely on the memories of the people who are still on staff, or the assumptions prior staff members may have made about the copyrights. (exmple: "drow" was claimed by TSR as a copyright for a long time, until someone did the research to present independent, earlier usages of the term to refer to
"dark elves" that significantly predate D&D. That work done, the public domain character of "drow" has been firmly established; however, there are lots of people who work or have worked on the D&D business in some capacity that don't know it, and still assume that what they were told (that TSR "owned" "drow") was true. When they state that "fact", they're not lying or trying to decieve anyone, they're just passing along a knowledge-base of conventional wisdom that happens to be riddled with errors.)

As a part of preparing for 3rd Edition, we took a hard look at some of the core monsters in the D&D beastiary, and selected several of them to undergo a substantial visual reconcepting. The effort was made to end up with illustrations of the creatures that could not easily be duplicated without referencing WotC's illustrations; so that in turn we could generate licensing fees from selling the rights to those images to action figure manufacturers, computer game companies, etc. That list includes most of the popular and common monsters. Having done that work, WotC is unwilling to simply give it all away for free.

My standpoint is that illustrations are not game rules, or material that uses those rules, and therefore the control of derivative works for the illustrations of D&D falls outside the scope I perceive to be critical for the success of the Open Gaming movement. That viewpoint, combined with the strategy of leveraging the "new look" D&D monsters (that I helped craft) guided my choices when redacting the Monster Manual into SRD format.
[/B]

From the above I gather the following:

1) That from the beginning WotC was concerned with "derivitive works" abusing certain "PI" images in the MM...

2) That perhaps WotC was so concerned by the above that they decided to take out those creatures that they desired to protect from such violations (of which I believe there have been a few)...

3) That attempting to create "Brain Flayers", "Eye Balls", etc... would be considered "deriviate work" by WotC and probably frowned on by WotC and its probably its lawyers...

Hope this post by Ryan helps others to understand what perhaps is going on... I know it reminded me of the concerns WotC had with "derivative works" using the MM instead of the SRD as their basis... Perhaps WotC decided just to cut out the monsters to avoid problem...

Jaldaen
 
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It's not hard at all for some d20 publisher to make a squid-headed creature that eats brains and is called the Brain Flayer...

Or for them to whip up a big eye with a lot of stalks and a jaw and magical powers from the eyes that is called the Eye Ball.

See, I want a shared mythos, but I don't want this. Ideally the shared mythos I want is the same mythos that I've been playing with for over 20 years, not a knocked off version of it. If it turns out that WotC will not cooperate with the concept, then any shared mythos needs to be something new and unique.
 

Jhyrryl said:


See, I want a shared mythos, but I don't want this. Ideally the shared mythos I want is the same mythos that I've been playing with for over 20 years, not a knocked off version of it. If it turns out that WotC will not cooperate with the concept, then any shared mythos needs to be something new and unique.

I agree completely. A knock-off will always feel like a knock-off, and that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Additionally, there's the derivative product problem, and who really wants to bother with that?

New and unique is what made the game interesting in the first place - I'm not claiming that much of the small boxed set was original (far from it!) - but the ideas were, and the initial thrill of having some grotesque thing described in vivid detail by the DM and wondering, "Oh, crap, are we gonna die?"...that's what makes the game fun.

I'm guessing that more than a few of the 30-somethings reading this have been playing an insanely long time, long enough to have become jaded and recover more than once. We know that the secret to recovering from being jaded is originality, not trying to recover past glory. I'm suggesting that the idea of a mythos shared by multiple publishers (not merely authors) is sufficiently original to generate a lot of interest and energy.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
Or to make an austere race of psionic monks that live on a plane of absolute chaos and call them the Xerai, and they have a long standing feud with their cousins the Yanky, who live on the plane of thought and ectoplasm and tame red dragons and are militaristic and worship a soul-consuming god-queen with the Lich template. And have them both enslaved in times gone by by the Brain Friars.
While I don't condone this action, I am intrigued by these monks you mention, the Brain Friars. Some form of monastic order dedicated to reason, not divine worship, I assume. Cool concept. While rumored to eat brains, it is actually the zombies that they use for menial labor that occasionally munch a brain down.
 

New Thread?

Should we move discussion of this to an all new thread? I'm interested in new and different as a player, DM and developer.

-- Rgb

PS: Hey Brannon! What happened to ps3e.com?
 

Well, the thing is...

I mean, look at something like the videogame Final Fantasy.

They had an enemy in there that was a squid-headed humanoid with a long rod in their hand, dressed in robes. They lived in caves, or near water, and could use a powerful ability called "brain blast" (or something similar) to confuse or stun your entire party...

It was called a WIZARD.

Other versions of the game have had other creatures...including one called a MINDFLARE.

Is this enfringement on a WotC copyright? It looks like a Mind Flayer. It blasts your brain. It even has a name that is even more suspect than Brain Friar. :)

And Wizards doesn't seem to be too eager to sue Squaresoft over this.....

So there seems to be something of a crossover. Or at least a common mythological source for a squid-headed person that can blast your brain. So this isn't exactly derivative...or at least, not derivative from WotC, unless someone already did it. And then you can argue that you're taking inspiration from Final Fantasy, and not D&D...and in Final Fantasy, they're largely just another enemy to slice up.

I do think that just living in a world without them is best. Mutants and masterminds abound, and you don't need WotC's pre-established ones to be interesting or compelling.

But still....at least with the mind flayer, it seems suspect...maybe I'm just st00pid, though.
 

Alzrius said:

So are tanar'ri, baatezu, and a horde of other beasties.
The tanar'ri and baatezu are just names thought up by TSR/Wizards during the 80's and 90's politically correct era (when TSR is trying to do right by grievances from religious institutions), but they basically describe the demons and devils, which are Public Domain.


What's happening here just seems arbitrary, as well as unexpected. This deals a rather harsh blow to quite a few d20 companies, and honestly, IMHO, the idea that some monsters "are so D&D that they shouldn't appear anywhere else" just strikes me as ridiculous, as well as puerile, especially given that no warning was given to the myriad d20 companies about this.
Perhaps, but most companies knew what they're getting into when it comes to using the Draft sections of the SRD (found on www.opengamingfoundation.org) and the Gentleperson's Agreement.

The draft is NOT beta, nor it is the example of the final product, once Wizards R&D and Wizards Legal review, edit, and approve them.
 
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Fear not all, The Yuan-ti and Mind Flayer are in the d20 Modern SRD, so they're still legal :D .

Otherwise, They may have taken them down for now to add those missing monsters.

:( :( :( OK, I just went to d20 modern and checked, they're not there either! I'm seriously PEEVED!!!!
 
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They were never in the modern SRD actually... I had noticed that and was wondering why... never made the connection however.
 

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