D&D General UPDATE: this isn't greenlit : Jeff Grubb's Lost Mystara Sourcebook To Be Released

Ex-TSR designer Jeff Grubb wrote a Known World of Mystara sourcebook for AD&D 2E that was sadly never published. But now WotC has given permission for it's release to Shawn Stanley of the Vaults of Pandius website, the Official Mystara Homepage!

Grubb posted on Facebook:

"A long time ago I wrote a project for TSR converting the Known World of Mystara from D&D to AD&D 2nd Edition. Through a tale of woe and intrigue, (link below) that product was never completed, and instead became Karameikos, Kingdom of Adventure.

However, I kept a copy of the unfinished manuscript (well, print-out), and a short while ago, gave it to Shawn Stanley, who runs the Pandius Website. He in turn has cleaned it up a bit, and plans to release it, free, with WotC's blessing, to fans on the website's anniversary.

It is really nice to see this surface after so many years - it is a "Lost Tome" of D&D history, and I hope fans of the setting enjoy it."

He speaks more about the story, and why he left TSR, on his blog.

Mystara is a D&D campaign setting first published in the early 1980s, and was the 'default' setting for D&D for a long time.

Why I left TSR

A couple years back I talked about Stormfront , the TSR world that I never ended up creating. And in the initial entry I said: " Stormfro...

grubbstreet.blogspot.com

Updates from @Dungeonosophy

Jeff Grubb gives an overview of the book on his blog

As for the release date: Shawn Stanley, Webmaster of the Vaults of Pandius, announced (here) that June 27th is the planned release date.

Some people were wondering if Jeff is involved in the release.

I reached out to Shawn Stanley on April 10th:
"Yes I was going to reach out to him with respect to providing some sort of foreword for the release. I had been intending to do so once I had finished the graphic design - but with the release of new news yesterday, I reached out to him yesterday. I also wanted to get his okay for the editing that I had done. But yes, I would think that anything that Jeff wants to write to accompany the document would be a great idea. I do kind of agree that something a little bit less-depressing than the blog posts might be preferable - something to celebrate the release than recall the negative things that had happened during that time."
"I do hope that he will agree."

Jeff also responded to me on April 10th:
"Shawn has been in touch with me, and I will be glad to write a brief foreword for the project."

Which will be a fulfillment of Jeff's offer back in 2019:
"If you succeed [with the petition], I will be glad to provide an intro with a less-depressing history of the project."

Note Vaults of Pandius is the Official Mystara Homepage! Given that designation by WotC, back in the 2000s, when Jim Butler was managing fan policy for "other worlds." There's an official agreement and everything. That's why the site is the natural host for this.

UPDATE:
WotC's approval of this sourcebook's release have been premature, i.e. it isn't greenlit.

 

[Ancalagon]

So for those wondering what happened to this, I did some Googling, and I've found several blogs and forum threads making reference to WotC's approval of this sourcebook's release having been premature, i.e. that they hadn't greenlit the release at the time of this announcement.

Given that the release date has come and gone, it looks like we won't be seeing this sourcebook after all.

maybe WotC just are being extra cautious and giving it a closer look, given recent events...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Wasn't just canon it wrecked, four out of 10 princes were dead or out of power, about 20% of the nation was a smoking crater, and a huge chunk of the internal politics that made it the unholy mess we knew and loved were gone. 2nd edition removed most of the internal problems that plagued the nation and reduced the plot to the people working for Synn and the people opposing her. Everybody else got shoved to the side. The hundred or so new spells were nice, but it was a Monte Cook product, he would have shaved off more interesting stuff to insert more spells if he could.

MORE SPELLS FOR THE SPELL GOD!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

How would it come across today then?
Its just that why would WOTC have problems with this being released then?
They could use it to demonstrate their interest in "classic" settings and it wouldn't cost them much especially if it proved popular.
Do they have something to fear about expanding the settings covered by 5e?
Or are they afraid it might draw attention away from something they want to release despite it might help in the long run?

WotC isn't scared of anything. Even if it was wildly successful, for a freebie fan product, it wouldn't meaningfully impact their sales of anything else.

They have had staff reductions in recent years and are mostly a lean headquarters team that deals with lots of freelancers. Even if their lawyers said it was a good idea to engage with this product, a manager would still need to say "yeah, this staffer who would otherwise be working on a product to increase revenue will instead spend those same hours on a product that won't."

Even if there was a lot of slack in the system -- meaning, a lot of staffers with available manhours to do something like this -- that's something a lot of managers at a lot of companies wouldn't sign off on.

 

[CleverNickName]

This might only be a rumor, but what a great rumor! If there really is a new Mystara product in the works, I hope they give Bruce Heard/Calidar Publishing a call to help with the writing.

 

[Yaarel]

It is one of the easiest settings to get new people into because of the real-world comparisons. It's got cultures from all over the globe included, and it's easy to just define Mystaran cultures as fantasy Romans/Mongols/Arabians/Serbs/Egyptians/Polynesians/Comanche/Texans/Vikings/Dutch in a way that new players instantly recognize. A few cultures need tweaking, but it's one of the best D&D settings created because of the variety you get in playable cultures.

I am guessing the main potential problem would be cultural appropriation and misrepresentation.

Especially if the Mystara setting was intentionally designed around stereotypes, this kind of humor or playfulness was appreciated as ironic in an earlier era to combat and objectify reallife prejudices, but seems less appreciated today.

I assume a 5e update of Mystara can easily avoid "chainmail bikini" illustrations, as well as place women and LGBTQ in prominent leadership roles. Probably, out of every ten couples, one should be a male couple and one should be a female couple. It is important to illustrate that LGBTQ exist.

(Also I feel it is important to have some illustrations of "sexy" characters. The number of images of goodlooking women needs to have the same number of images of goodlooking men. And the number of monstrous men should have the same number of monstrous women.)

So back to the cultures.

The obvious problems happen when one culture has a higher Intelligence than an other culture, and so on, when one culture is more human and beautiful while an other culture is less human and monstrous, when one culture is Good while an other culture is Evil. I dont know if Mystara has these problematics.

But beyond the obvious, there are cultural sensitivities. There are several cultures that I am sensitive to in reallife, and I might personally feel uncomfortable. For example, if the "viking" culture looked more like Conan polytheism and less like the reallife or mythologically accurate Norse animistic peoples, that barbarification can become objectionable. (Berserkar did exist as a kind of shamanic warrior, but they were specific and often feared by other Norse.) Likewise, I want positive and reasonably accurate portrayals of Jewish Israel and the Mideast generally.

I also noticed from the intro video, that some monstrous cultures have "shamans", as if reallife animistic peoples are primitive and Evil. This barbarification − and dehumanization − is problematic.

Possibly other aspects of religion might be less problematic, if the "objectively existing" immortals are high level adventurers. I hope they are not objects of worship which would make them gods, by definition. But rather, I hope these are political leaders, who the people of the world can choose to support or not.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I am guessing the main potential problem would be cultural appropriation and misrepresentation.

This is going to be it. While everything in Mystara has played off of “maybe Earth”, it deliberately uses the hypothetical map of late Jurassic Earth, a non-problematic representation of non-European cultures will be effort.

The obvious problems happen when one culture has a higher Intelligence than an other culture, and so on, when one culture is more human and beautiful while an other culture is less human and monstrous, when one culture is Good while an other culture is Evil. I dont know if Mystara has these problematics.

Mystara’s best-loved products were the Gazetteers. Each presented a region of play such that an entire campaign could be contained in that region. Factions of good guys and bad guys of those nations were shown.

What was done poorly, three Gazetteers are less kindly looked at. Orcs of Thar, Kingdom of Ierendi, and Atruaghin Clans. Thar was novel in that it was one of the earliest offerings of playable non-humanoids; orcs, goblins, kobolds. But it leaned into over-the-top mocking humor at low intelligence. Ierendi leaned into tropical island resort motifs, and Atruaghin Clans was a very poorly received presentation of Native American peoples that needs extreme sensitivity re-writing.

But beyond the obvious, there are cultural sensitivities. There are several cultures that I am sensitive to in reallife, and I might personally feel uncomfortable. For example, if the "viking" culture looked more like Conan polytheism and less like the reallife or mythologically accurate Norse animistic peoples, that barbarification can become objectionable. (Berserkar did exist as a kind of shamanic warrior, but they were specific and often feared by other Norse.)

I think the Northern Reaches is one of the more complex representations of a fantasy Scandinavia in D&D, the berserk in the book come from a 2nd level cleric spell cast on self or touched creature.

Likewise, I want positive and reasonably accurate portrayals of Jewish Israel and the Mideast generally.

Don’t think there is a M-Israel, Ylaruam is the M-Arabia and I‘m certain could use a sensitivity reader in ensuring it is not presented through an Orientalist’s lens. Looking wider, there is an ancient M-Egypt known as Nithia that only exists in the history of the setting. When the setting added Hollow World, Nithia was placed in Hollow World and fully developed as a high fantasy ancient Egypt. If there is a metaplot of the setting it is the Cold War between two empires. Thyatis (maybe M-Byzantium) vs. Alphatia. Alphatia is hard to pin down, but they are a people who crossed the void of space and colonized and conquered the continent they landed at. They generally seem generic high fantasy tropes but the iconography of their book’s cover showed Mesopotamian lamassu heads, so I imagined Alphatia’s multiple-continent spanning empire’s ruling class was Sumerian/Persian.

I also noticed from the intro video, that some monstrous cultures have "shamans", as if reallife animistic peoples are primitive and Evil. This barbarification − and dehumanization − is problematic.

The BECMI Shaman class (and the Wokan class) were added into the rules to give non-character races a cleric healing class and an arcane magic-user class that we’re both not as good as the player character cleric or magic-user classes. A 5e has no rules mechanic reason to preserve the artifacts of BECMI design choices. But this lost book was migrating the setting out of BECMI and into AD&D 2e. Mystara has no drow, half-orcs, or half-elves, so it would be interesting how the conversion would go.

Possibly other aspects of religion might be less problematic, if the "objectively existing" immortals are high level adventurers. I hope they are not objects of worship which would make them gods, by definition. But rather, I hope these are political leaders, who the people of the world can choose to support or not.

Mystara’s immortals are … different. Many (most?) were once mortals. Once immortality is achieved, they (supposedly) are no longer permitted to directly influence affairs of the world. While each nation/region will have distinct pantheons that are revered, there are 5 factions of immortals that compete. Energy, Time, Matter, Entropy, Thought. The factions cross through all pantheons such that a pantheon might be made up of an immortal from each faction. And characters can get along perfectly fine ignoring immortals all together, some immortals are worshipped, others do not care to be and instead simply want to achieve their goals. It’s different and similar, but I think more flexible than as typically presented in D&D’s gods.

 

[AnotherGuy]

No thanks, I'd rather not see a politicized Mystara. Rather leave it be.

 

[bedir than]

politicized Mystara

You spelled "respectful" wrong

 

[Yaarel]

This is going to be it. While everything in Mystara has played off of “maybe Earth”, it deliberately uses the hypothetical map of late Jurassic Earth, a non-problematic representation of non-European cultures will be effort.


Mystara’s best-loved products were the Gazetteers. Each presented a region of play such that an entire campaign could be contained in that region. Factions of good guys and bad guys of those nations were shown.

What was done poorly, three Gazetteers are less kindly looked at. Orcs of Thar, Kingdom of Ierendi, and Atruaghin Clans. Thar was novel in that it was one of the earliest offerings of playable non-humanoids; orcs, goblins, kobolds. But it leaned into over-the-top mocking humor at low intelligence. Ierendi leaned into tropical island resort motifs, and Atruaghin Clans was a very poorly received presentation of Native American peoples that needs extreme sensitivity re-writing.


I think the Northern Reaches is one of the more complex representations of a fantasy Scandinavia in D&D, the berserk in the book come from a 2nd level cleric spell cast on self or touched creature.


Don’t think there is a M-Israel, Ylaruam is the M-Arabia and I‘m certain could use a sensitivity reader in ensuring it is not presented through an Orientalist’s lens. Looking wider, there is an ancient M-Egypt known as Nithia that only exists in the history of the setting. When the setting added Hollow World, Nithia was placed in Hollow World and fully developed as a high fantasy ancient Egypt. If there is a metaplot of the setting it is the Cold War between two empires. Thyatis (maybe M-Byzantium) vs. Alphatia. Alphatia is hard to pin down, but they are a people who crossed the void of space and colonized and conquered the continent they landed at. They generally seem generic high fantasy tropes but the iconography of their book’s cover showed Mesopotamian lamassu heads, so I imagined Alphatia’s multiple-continent spanning empire’s ruling class was Sumerian/Persian.


The BECMI Shaman class (and the Wokan class) were added into the rules to give non-character races a cleric healing class and an arcane magic-user class that we’re both not as good as the player character cleric or magic-user classes. A 5e has no rules mechanic reason to preserve the artifacts of BECMI design choices. But this lost book was migrating the setting out of BECMI and into AD&D 2e. Mystara has no drow, half-orcs, or half-elves, so it would be interesting how the conversion would go.


Mystara’s immortals are … different. Many (most?) were once mortals. Once immortality is achieved, they (supposedly) are no longer permitted to directly influence affairs of the world. While each nation/region will have distinct pantheons that are revered, there are 5 factions of immortals that compete. Energy, Time, Matter, Entropy, Thought. The factions cross through all pantheons such that a pantheon might be made up of an immortal from each faction. And characters can get along perfectly fine ignoring immortals all together, some immortals are worshipped, others do not care to be and instead simply want to achieve their goals. It’s different and similar, but I think more flexible than as typically presented in D&D’s gods.

It sounds better than I feared. While there is obvious need for a cleanup, the premise seems redeemable.

Saving graces include, each nation has good guys and bad guys. The immortals seem flexible, and the relationship to them can vary from culture to culture, family to family, individual to individual.

Am I understanding correctly, that the reallife cultural parallels are all humans in Mystara? This helps.

For Maybe-Scandinavia, Berserk as a spell is ok, tho I would rather see it on a Psion spell list, as well as on a psionic archetype for Bard and Druid. The Cleric in the sense of a worshiper or a temple priest, isnt really a thing among the Norse. The Cleric in the sense of a singer of the Songs (healing and abjuration) might work, but this too should have psionic tag and be about warrior magic and improvisational mindful influence. In a similar sense the Paladin works well, tho maybe substitute force damage for the smites radiant damage.

I want to see a Maybe-Israel alongside the Maybe nations. It has its own version of immortals, relating to Tsadikim (similar to saints).

It seems the biggest difficulty is how Mystara represents shamans and animism. This seems to require an informed revision. Otherwise, having sensitivity checkers go thru it to look out for unexpected problems seems standard for the rest.

 

[overgeeked]

You spelled "respectful" wrong

It's utterly bizarre to me when people falsely assume that using racist stereotypes, Orientalism, and essentializing race/culture is somehow the apolitical stance and any attempt to remove racist stereotypes, Orientalism, and essentializing race/culture is the political stance. That's literally backwards. It's a political stance to use racist stereotypes, Orientalism, and essentializing race/culture. It is an apolitical stance to remove racist stereotypes, Orientalism, and essentializing race/culture. Is it really that whatever version they see first is the right and proper and therefore apolitical one?