Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Anubis]

Anubis, the reason that an Ogre, at CR 2, has an ECL higher than it's CR is because an Ogre, at CR 2, is meant to be faced against a party of 4 players, all of them at 2nd level, thus a party level of 2. CRs assume that an average party, of four players, will be facing the monster. That's why they have higher ECLs.

Now, I have no doubt that an alternate CR system could be devised (not by me) that would represent a creature's CR on a one on one basis, thus making it equal to a character who's character level is as proportionately powerful to the creature. It would certainly make playing monsters easier.

What I'm saying is that the rules are ALREADY like that.

Read my explanation carefully.

If a Level 2 character is CR 2, and an ogre is CR 2, than an ogre is equal to a Level 2 character, and thus should be ECL 2, because ECL is a measure of character level.

See what I'm saying?

Basically:

Level 2 = CR 2
Ogre = CR 2
Level 2 = ECL 2

Level 2 = CR 2 = Ogre = ECL 2

Simple math. The only question is, which rule is correct, the one in the DMG that states that Level 2 = CR 2, or the section that lists ECLs?

You know what my theory says. Playtest it in a game, and you'll see that it works 100%.

 

[kreynolds]

What I'm saying is that the rules are ALREADY like that.

Not really. I'll explain below.

Level 2 = CR 2 = Ogre = ECL 2

Not exactly. One common oversight that some people suffer from is this: Your CR is a measure of your power, and your power is also affected by your resources. A standard core race PC at any particular level has a certain amount of resources available to it. These resources, measured in gold pieces, are what allow you to get weapons, magic items, spells, potions, tools, armor, etc. All of this gives you power, and that power is limited my your resources, and your resources are limited by your level.

A monster also has a certain amount of resources available to it, such as attacks, hit points, special attacks, special abilities, special qualities, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities, damage reduction, energy resistance, energy immunity, etc, etc. These resources are limited by the monster's CR.

Now, if you take a monster, which has a set amount of resources based upon it's CR, and make it a player character, you are effectively granting it even more resources to allow it to aquire weapons, magic items, spells, potions, tools, armor, etc. Thus, it's effective character level is increased due to the fact that it already has it's own resources.

So, presumably, an Ogre is ECL +5 because it starts with the resources equal to that of the average 5th level character. Now, where ECL breaks down is when you actually compare the monster to a PC of equal level. For instance, compare a young bronze dragon, which has an ECL of +17, to that of a 17th level character of any given class. Are they perfectly equal? Nope. They all have their different advantages and disadvantages, such as melee capabilities, ranged capabilities, magic capabilities, etc, etc.

However, the primary flaw of ECL is the fact that monsters were designed to exhist for but a few rounds, or minutes, at the most. Thus, their resources (such as attacks, hit points, special attacks, special abilities, special qualities, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities, damage reduction, energy resistance, energy immunity, etc) were geared for a specific purpose, such as melee combat, ranged combat, magical combat, swallowing opponents, grappling, etc, etc.

The core classes were designed, in theory, to be balanced with one another. Even though on class is more focused on a particular area than another class, they are balanced with one another. ECL is used to balance a monster PC with standard PCs, and with the game as a whole. ECL is used to balance a monster, as if it were a class in and off itself, with the other classes.

At least, that's the way it's supposed to work. But like I said, ECL isn't perfect, but neither does level = CR = monster = ECL.

 

[Anubis]

Not really. I'll explain below.



Not exactly. One common oversight that some people suffer from is this: Your CR is a measure of your power, and your power is also affected by your resources. A standard core race PC at any particular level has a certain amount of resources available to it. These resources, measured in gold pieces, are what allow you to get weapons, magic items, spells, potions, tools, armor, etc. All of this gives you power, and that power is limited my your resources, and your resources are limited by your level.

A monster also has a certain amount of resources available to it, such as attacks, hit points, special attacks, special abilities, special qualities, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities, damage reduction, energy resistance, energy immunity, etc, etc. These resources are limited by the monster's CR.

Now, if you take a monster, which has a set amount of resources based upon it's CR, and make it a player character, you are effectively granting it even more resources to allow it to aquire weapons, magic items, spells, potions, tools, armor, etc. Thus, it's effective character level is increased due to the fact that it already has it's own resources.

So, presumably, an Ogre is ECL +5 because it starts with the resources equal to that of the average 5th level character. Now, where ECL breaks down is when you actually compare the monster to a PC of equal level. For instance, compare a young bronze dragon, which has an ECL of +17, to that of a 17th level character of any given class. Are they perfectly equal? Nope. They all have their different advantages and disadvantages, such as melee capabilities, ranged capabilities, magic capabilities, etc, etc.

However, the primary flaw of ECL is the fact that monsters were designed to exhist for but a few rounds, or minutes, at the most. Thus, their resources (such as attacks, hit points, special attacks, special abilities, special qualities, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities, damage reduction, energy resistance, energy immunity, etc) were geared for a specific purpose, such as melee combat, ranged combat, magical combat, swallowing opponents, grappling, etc, etc.

The core classes were designed, in theory, to be balanced with one another. Even though on class is more focused on a particular area than another class, they are balanced with one another. ECL is used to balance a monster PC with standard PCs, and with the game as a whole. ECL is used to balance a monster, as if it were a class in and off itself, with the other classes.

At least, that's the way it's supposed to work. But like I said, ECL isn't perfect, but neither does level = CR = monster = ECL.

I understand what you're saying, but you're overlooking one little point:

To use the Level = CR = Monster = ECL formula, you need to give wealth based on CLASS level as opposed to character level or ECL. In other words, Make an ogre ECL 2, and if he comes into a Level 2 campaign, he only has the basic resources afforded the monster. At Level 3, the monster would get starting money. You get the idea.

Do that, and it balances. Truly the problem lies with the development, but that is easily worked around as I have stated.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

And this make a difference...how? I never challenged your CR system. What I did do, however, is point out that a core rules argument based upon your rules is completely baseless. Sure, if we were talking about Dungeons & Upper_Krust, then it would apply. But, since we are talking about Dungeons & Dragons, well, that's a whole different story.

I agree...again.

I didn't mean to imply that your system doesn't work, when in fact, I've never even looked at.

Thats okay - its Epic/Immortal Level gaming ce

 

[Upper_Krust]

Test

Can I post this single line?

Then edit this post with a second line?

How about a third
and fourth line?

Looks about ready to try a quote:

Blah blah blah

And this make a difference...how? I never challenged your CR system. What I did do, however, is point out that a core rules argument based upon your rules is completely baseless. Sure, if we were talking about Dungeons & Upper_Krust, then it would apply. But, since we are talking about Dungeons & Dragons, well, that's a whole different story.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

And this make a difference...how? I never challenged your CR system. What I did do, however, is point out that a core rules argument based upon your rules is completely baseless. Sure, if we were talking about Dungeons & Upper_Krust, then it would apply. But, since we are talking about Dungeons & Dragons, well, that's a whole different story.

I agree...again.

I didn't mean to imply that your system doesn't work, when in fact, I've never even looked at.

Thats okay - its Epic/Immortal Level gaming cen

 

[Upper_Krust]

Incidently when I get this problem sorted I will reddress the content of these tests with something meaningful. (I'm at +4 lines)
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[kreynolds]

I understand what you're saying, but you're overlooking one little point:

I didn't forget that at all. I even illustrated it in my previous post. *shrug*

 

[Upper_Krust]

Announcement.

Hi all!

You boys play nice you hear!

The high spot of today is that I now have the ELH.

I'll try and respond to the current post backlog a bit later - its a bit sickening when you don't know if a message you type will post or not. So bear with me.

Added to that I will be away from my computer for a 9 days from Saturday 24th (as I head off to Gencon UK). I may be able to squeeze in some posts on S'mons computer now and again but don't expect too much.

 

[Necropolis]

hi
upper krust : can you give us please the realese date for your book ?
and not like maybe in september you know ike a real date
thanks