Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

A few salient points...

Hi all!

I have been taking something of a hiatus from the boards lately to get some writing done.

#1. The ECL/CR article for Dragon is practically finished (I should be submitting it tomorrow). I'll let you know how that goes.

#2. The changes to ECL/CR have facilitated a change in the Personal Equipment (Wealth) formula.

Its still Level^3 x 100 GP

But Personal equipment is now:

square root of wealth x 1550 GP (up to the wealth limit; these changes don't actually kick in until 29th-level)

The reason for this (seemingly more clumsy than usual) mechanic is that I have imposed the changes from the point at which a character could own items more expensive than 600,000 GP (since that is the limit for a Planar Metropolis and the upper limit of something you can 'buy')

#3. I have recently turned my attention to Armor Class/Natural Armor.

Seemingly there is a problem with Natural Armor (something I joked about before).

The immediate extent of my revision will be to scrap the Natural Armor Bonus attributed to Divinity.

Any subsequent Natural Armor changes will be merely optional.

#4. I am currently pondering over a change to BAB, from the Epic Progression to a simple return to Core BAB.

I don't like the idea that monsters could have a superior BAB progression than Fighters.

#5. Once I have decided upon the BAB solution (if any is deemed necessary?). I will make a point to sort out Spell Resistance one way or another. I have given the matter some cursory glances and it appears some changes will need to be made (at the very least in assigning SR).

 

[Anubis]

Re: A few salient points...

Hi all!

I have been taking something of a hiatus from the boards lately to get some writing done.

#1. The ECL/CR article for Dragon is practically finished (I should be submitting it tomorrow). I'll let you know how that goes.

#2. The changes to ECL/CR have facilitated a change in the Personal Equipment (Wealth) formula.

Its still Level^3 x 100 GP

But Personal equipment is now:

square root of wealth x 1550 GP (up to the wealth limit; these changes don't actually kick in until 29th-level)

The reason for this (seemingly more clumsy than usual) mechanic is that I have imposed the changes from the point at which a character could own items more expensive than 600,000 GP (since that is the limit for a Planar Metropolis and the upper limit of something you can 'buy')

#3. I have recently turned my attention to Armor Class/Natural Armor.

Seemingly there is a problem with Natural Armor (something I joked about before).

The immediate extent of my revision will be to scrap the Natural Armor Bonus attributed to Divinity.

Any subsequent Natural Armor changes will be merely optional.

#4. I am currently pondering over a change to BAB, from the Epic Progression to a simple return to Core BAB.

I don't like the idea that monsters could have a superior BAB progression than Fighters.

#5. Once I have decided upon the BAB solution (if any is deemed necessary?). I will make a point to sort out Spell Resistance one way or another. I have given the matter some cursory glances and it appears some changes will need to be made (at the very least in assigning SR).

Basically, you're completely changing damn near everything at Epic levels. What about those of us who paid for the ELH and want some use out of it?

I'm sorry, but the more I hear, the more I don't like this. Not because I don't like your changes (I don't know about your changes), but because they're unnecessary. I have always said "If it ain't broken, don't fix it." Believe it or not, ECL/CR, and SR indirectly, are the ONLY things broken (broken meaning only unbalanced for gaming) in the system as it is. Changing ECL/CR for Level 20 and under is needless. Most of us have gamed for a long time and seen NO problems at those levels as-is. (There are some monsters needing changing, but the system itself works find. Just some of the numbers are wrong. Any further changes besides what we originally spoke of are needless and complicated matters far too much.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. The core system for Levels 1-20 is not broken.

 

[Knight Otu]

Re: A few salient points...

#3. I have recently turned my attention to Armor Class/Natural Armor.

AGAIN?

Seemingly there is a problem with Natural Armor (something I joked about before).

The immediate extent of my revision will be to scrap the Natural Armor Bonus attributed to Divinity.

Any subsequent Natural Armor changes will be merely optional.

OK so far. I suppose you will advocate supernatural armor as deflection?

#4. I am currently pondering over a change to BAB, from the Epic Progression to a simple return to Core BAB.

I don't like the idea that monsters could have a superior BAB progression than Fighters.

That has to be the single most hated rule in the ELH.

I don't think a change is necessary for it, though. If you really have to change it, use the often proposed "Best 20 levels" house rule.

#5. Once I have decided upon the BAB solution (if any is deemed necessary?). I will make a point to sort out Spell Resistance one way or another. I have given the matter some cursory glances and it appears some changes will need to be made (at the very least in assigning SR).

Possibly.

 

[Knight Otu]

Re: Re: A few salient points...

Basically, you're completely changing damn near everything at Epic levels.

How so?
He changes: Wealth, SR, CR, possibly BAB. Most of the rest will remain unchanged. Does he change the classes? The monsters (apart from slight changes as seen above)? The City of Union? The sample adventure (ok, that one might need changing)? The GM advice? Most of the ELH remains unchanged from what I can see. I'd bet that the D&DG sees more changes from UK than the ELH.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Don't be scared...I know what I'm doing

Hi Anubis mate!

Basically, you're completely changing damn near everything at Epic levels.

Theres nothing like wild exaggeration to start the day!

What about those of us who paid for the ELH and want some use out of it?

I'm advocating some changes, yes. But not without solid reasoning behind every single addendum!

Aside from the changes to ECL/CR, I think continuing BAB progression* as per the core rules is valid.

*Obviously without increasing iterative attacks.

I certainly don't like the idea of Dragons; Magical Beasts; Monstrous Humanoids and Outsiders having superior BAB to equivalent level Fighter types from 22 HD onward.

But you also have the ludicrous situation whereby: Aberrations; Animals; Beasts; Constructs; Elementals; Giants; Humanoids; Oozes; Plants; Shapechangers and Vermin all outstrip the BAB of equivalent level Fighter types from 40HD onward!

I'm sorry, but the more I hear, the more I don't like this. Not because I don't like your changes (I don't know about your changes), but because they're unnecessary. I have always said "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

...and once again I retort "it is broken - I have fixed it!"

Believe it or not, ECL/CR, and SR indirectly, are the ONLY things broken (broken meaning only unbalanced for gaming) in the system as it is.

Yet I can prove to the contrary.

Instead of blindly telling me something is wrong without acknowledging the facts first why don't you just inquire as to why I am making certain changes. Then you can judge the change in and of its own merits without jumping to inaccurate conclusions.

Changing ECL/CR for Level 20 and under is needless.

I disagree.

In fact you are being hypocritical here since you flatly agreed a month or so ago that a 20th-level character was no match for a party of four 16th-level characters.

Most of us have gamed for a long time and seen NO problems at those levels as-is. (There are some monsters needing changing, but the system itself works find. Just some of the numbers are wrong.

You are contradicting yourself here.

Any further changes besides what we originally spoke of are needless and complicated matters far too much.

None of the changes I advocate are simply for their own sake.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

You can repeat 2+2=5 as much as you want (in upper case if you prefer) but that doesn't make it anymore right!

The core system for Levels 1-20 is not broken.

The only elements of the core rules I have changed is ECL/CR and Harm/Heal.

Both are warranted, however if people want to ignore my advice then thats fair enough. I'm not telling anyone what to do; merely advocating certain changes for the benefit of everyones campaign. They'll either see the logic in the changes, or not.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: A few salient points...

Hi Knight Otu mate!

Incidently I saw a great horror movie in the cinema yesterday. Not sure if it has been released outside the UK or not yet.

Its called '28 days later'. I can't recommend it strongly enough - though I would say its not for the faint-hearted...you have been warned.

http://www.28dayslaterthemovie.co.uk/main.html

AGAIN?

I know. I seem to have this on/off relationship with Natural Armour.

Deities really gain too many AC bonuses. Left unchecked AC totally runs away from BAB. Factor in magic items and that problem is realised sooner than you think.

OK so far. I suppose you will advocate supernatural armor as deflection?

Well I am scrapping the Natural Armour bonus.

The Deflection bonus for high Charisma still stands; technically its Supernatural Armour.

Deities also still gain the Divine Bonus to AC. That functions within Anti-magic.

Deities can still gain Natural Armour (via SDAs); they just don't get the DR+13 NA automatic bonus.

That has to be the single most hated rule in the ELH.

I don't think a change is necessary for it, though. If you really have to change it, use the often proposed "Best 20 levels" house rule.

The simplest way round it seems to be to continue Core BAB though - that way you don't have to 'fix' the monsters.

Possibly.

Tell me about it!

 

[Bjorn Doneerson]

Hiya there, buddy-boy!!!!!!! (Hoo-hoo-hoo-hooooo!!!)

You have Seraphim, right? Are ya gonna do Cherubim and everything else as well?

f you release it as a pdf and then as an actual book, willone cost more than the other?

You keep saying it wil be priced like a book of similar size or sumpin' like that. Exactly what size would that be?

 

[Xeriar]

Re: Re: Re: A few salient points...

How so?
He changes: Wealth, SR, CR, possibly BAB. Most of the rest will remain unchanged. Does he change the classes? The monsters (apart from slight changes as seen above)? The City of Union? The sample adventure (ok, that one might need changing)? The GM advice? Most of the ELH remains unchanged from what I can see. I'd bet that the D&DG sees more changes from UK than the ELH.

Add to this, many of us whacked the ELH BAB progression deal anyway, right after it came out.

I know I'm not the only one who did it, anyway.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Don't be scared...I know what I'm doing

Aside from the changes to ECL/CR, I think continuing BAB progression* as per the core rules is valid.

Except then eventually clerics and wizards and rogues can't hit a damn thing OR fighters will hit everything without fail. If you increase AC to balance with fighter BAB, the clerics, rogues, and wizards will eventually not have any power to hit. If you make AC balance with clerics' and rogues' BAB, fighters will never miss except on a 1.

I certainly don't like the idea of Dragons; Magical Beasts; Monstrous Humanoids and Outsiders having superior BAB to equivalent level Fighter types from 22 HD onward.

But you also have the ludicrous situation whereby: Aberrations; Animals; Beasts; Constructs; Elementals; Giants; Humanoids; Oozes; Plants; Shapechangers and Vermin all outstrip the BAB of equivalent level Fighter types from 40HD onward!

That really doesn't bother me . . .

...and once again I retort "it is broken - I have fixed it!"

Prove that it's broken. Try it. Try to prove that a troll is not a suitable challenge for a party of Level 5 characters. Prove that the XP system is broken at low levels. Prove that there is a reason to change the progression at low levels. Prove that a Level 1 character is ECL 2, or that a Level 2 character is ECL 4. You simply can't do it, period, because it's not true. If that were the case, one Level 1 character could take on four hobgoblins, which would be laughable at best.

Yet I can prove to the contrary.

Instead of blindly telling me something is wrong without acknowledging the facts first why don't you just inquire as to why I am making certain changes. Then you can judge the change in and of its own merits without jumping to inaccurate conclusions.

Please do prove it. Unless this can be proven in a game, you have no base. Since the game has *always* played *without a problem* at lower levels (I know, I've been playing ever since the release of 3rd Edition), there is no way to prove that there is a problem.

Your example of four Level 1 characters *supposedly* equal to a CR 5 by the rules is INVALID, because that is not stated ANYWHERE. Four Level 1 characters, by the book, are "UK equal" to CR 4 (1+1+1+1), and that's STILL not a "good" encounter, but rather, BY THE RULES, a "very difficult" encounter. You DO NOT judge challenge based on character vs. character, but by FOUR PCs vs. a CR equal to party level. That means a single CR 1 creature is a suitable challenge for a Level 1 party, and a CR 4, although "UK equal", by the rules it is a very difficult encounter and one that the party should fleee from ACCORDING TO THE RULES.

So again, please offer proof for all of your claims. I have stated specific rules and given examples that support my argument, that AND playing the game without problems.

I disagree.

In fact you are being hypocritical here since you flatly agreed a month or so ago that a 20th-level character was no match for a party of four 16th-level characters.

I ignored this statement before, but now I have to object, because I NEVER said that a 20th-level character was no match for a Level 16 party. I said a Level 16 party ran over a BALOR. I thus believe the Balor to NOT be Level 20, but rather Level 15. Another point I failed to mention before, however, was the party makeup.

Level 1 Quasi-deity Fighter (at ECL +14 before I conceded that quasi-deities were more than that)
Level 1 Saiyan Warrior
Levle 16 Sorcerer
Level 16 Cleric/Sacred Fist

The other point I mentioned, which disproves your accusation, is that the supposed CR 20 Ancient Brown Dragon SQUASHED THIS PARTY EASILY. I think that means I claims Level 20 was way to much for a Level 16 party to fight with. Unless you can quote where I said a Level 20 character dies at the hands of a Level 16 party, stop accusing me of doing so!

The only elements of the core rules I have changed is ECL/CR and Harm/Heal.

I bet you're not going with either of my proposed fixes for Heal and Harm, despite the fact that my fix balances perfectly.

Basically, my first version of Harm is "take enough damage to be reduced to 1 hp or take 100 damage, whichever is less damage; will save for half damage". Heal gives back 100 hp flat. Mass Heal and "Mass Harm" are self-explanatory here.

My second version makes Heal give back 1d8 hp/level +1 hp/level. Harm takes away the same amount. Mass Heal and Mass Harm are against self-explanatory.

Both are warranted, however if people want to ignore my advice then thats fair enough. I'm not telling anyone what to do; merely advocating certain changes for the benefit of everyones campaign. They'll either see the logic in the changes, or not.

Show something, ANYTHING that supports your theories. Also, how will those of us without Dragon gonna get a hold of this? What if they don't accept your article? What if it takes them 3 months to put it in?

 

[Xeriar]

Prove that it's broken.

For the BAB/EAB progression, it's simple: It adds another unneccessary rule.

As for Upper Krust's system, I do think he's going too far, I just add one CR point at 2nd level, and start +2 levels = 1 CR after 18th level.

(It's logical, at 2nd level, all classes double hit points, add +5% to hit, +5% to skills, along with other bonuses so long as its not a commoner. With equipment factored in, level 2 = CR 3)