Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[The Serge]

Lucifer and Satan

Tradition would say they're one and the same.

Religious/mythological studies would say they're two different beings who, through misinterpretation, are identified as one. Lucifer is a reference to a human king, while Satan is Christianity's traditional Dark Lord (although he has other names, like Baalzebub and Belial).

Personally, I like the two being the same only because it's a continuation of the classic "change" in identity that occurs with most heroes and the worst of villains. Lucifer, in his pride, ceases to be the Lightbearer and, since he led many angels against the god, becomes The Adversary, The Satan.

But that's just me

Anyway, U_K, in your cosmology, does that place Lucifer or Satan on top as one of the big baddies? If Satan's a fallen Arch-Angel, how does he rank based upon your design. And, if they're not one and the same, how is Lucifer distinguished from Satan and what's his status?

Later!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy-Ho, Sir Krustman!

Hi Bjorn mate!

I'm not dead.

Glad to hear it mate!

I was trying to catch up with this thread and couldn't, so I skimmed some of it.

Tell me about it! I would forget my head if it wasn't screwed on!

So, some random thoughts and I'm sorry If I refer to something that didn't happen on this thread or if I say something that's already been said.

Don't worry about that mate. Ask away!

Seraphim: Cool!!!
I heard once that they cover their "feet" with their wings, but "feet" didn't exactly mean feet.

They have winged feet (as well as having six wings); maybe this is what you picked up on (?) - though I am sure there are myriad versions depending on the source.

Cosmocrat: What is it? What does it look like and what is its purpose in life?

"...The Cosmocrats, or High-Handed Ones, are a race of trans-temporal aliens. While their exact nature and origins are unknown, they are thought to guard the time stream against external threats. Some divine sages even speculate that there is but one Cosmocrat. That it can appear in more than one place at the same time giving the illusion there are more than one. But such rumours are unverifiable.
Cosmocrats look like titanic suits of full armour, generally humanoid in appearance though of obvious alien design and material; perhaps orichalcum. What they look like beneath their armour..."

How much will the book set me back, cash-wise, and when, where and as what (title) should I look for it?

I would estimate it will be the standard price for a book its size!

Way back, I was meaning to comment on that list of where you ranked certain gods, I'll try and dig that up and copy and paste it here, OK?

Sure! I have probably changed a lot of my philosophy on such things over the intervening months but I'll be happy to discuss any questions you have, naturally.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Lucifer and Satan

Tradition would say they're one and the same.

Religious/mythological studies would say they're two different beings who, through misinterpretation, are identified as one. Lucifer is a reference to a human king, while Satan is Christianity's traditional Dark Lord (although he has other names, like Baalzebub and Belial).

Personally, I like the two being the same only because it's a continuation of the classic "change" in identity that occurs with most heroes and the worst of villains. Lucifer, in his pride, ceases to be the Lightbearer and, since he led many angels against the god, becomes The Adversary, The Satan.

But that's just me

Anyway, U_K, in your cosmology, does that place Lucifer or Satan on top as one of the big baddies? If Satan's a fallen Arch-Angel, how does he rank based upon your design. And, if they're not one and the same, how is Lucifer distinguished from Satan and what's his status?

Later!

Actually, from a religious standpoint, Lucifer and Satan are the same being.

Lucifer was the God-given Archangel name. When Lucifer betrayed God, God stripped him of that name as he was unworthy of it, and then cast him down into Hell.

He then took the new name Satan and became ruler of Hell.

 

[Bjorn Doneerson]

This is where I got the Seraphim info. Be warned, It specifically mentions what "feet" are. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/seraphim.html

The WotC boards don't like me. I can't find the list, I'll try again tomorrow.

"What they look like beneath their armour..." Is unknown? If so, I think I recognize them. BTW, you spelt armor wrong.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Will the real Devil please stand up.

Hi all!

I think there are too many ways to interpret the identity of Satan; Lucifer; Asmodeus that you could never hope to please all of the people all of the time.

Even I have multiple viewpoints on the matter.

The whole thing has grander philosophical issues - like the nature of the biblical GOD (yes I know; that old can of worms that its generally best to ignore).

If we position GOD as a 'mere' Greater Deity. Then Lucifers position is obviously one akin to the classic D&D representation of Asmodeus. Likewise the Seraphim would be Lesser Powers - in fact they would be identical in power to 1st Ed. Solars. You could of course make the case that with the advent of the Intermediate Level of power; Lucifer was (as the most powerful servant of god) within these parameters - this neatly allows us to use the 1st Ed. 333hp representation of Lucifer.

While the above position is valid it leads us to our first moral dilemma...

If GOD is only a Greater Power then he can't be the 'be all and end all' deity christianity prescribes to. Since, firstly, we know Uber-Deities exist. Secondly that in an open cosmology (according to other world mythologies) there are many such uber-deities so they can't all be omnipotent. Therefore GOD must be beyond Uber-deity power.

Anyway, I digress...

Now that we have taken GOD out of the physical equation lets look at whats left. Uber-deities. Most mythologies relate at least one entity that created those beings we paint as Greater Powers, or others that will destroy them.

The higher on the Cosmic scale the more abstract and less individual such entities become - until we arrive at a point where concepts and forces are represented.

At which point we realise that we are typing this bottomless rant at 2 am when we should be sleeping.

Later all!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Bjorn mate!

This is where I got the Seraphim info. Be warned, It specifically mentions what "feet" are. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/seraphim.html

Interesting.

The WotC boards don't like me. I can't find the list, I'll try again tomorrow.

Well I have made quite a few changes since then...

"What they look like beneath their armour..." Is unknown? If so, I think I recognize them.

I thought you might...I couldn't resist paying homage.

BTW, you spelt armor wrong.

True, from a certain point of view.

I'm going to have to go through the IH and Americanise it.

 

[Knight Otu]

Interesting description for the Cosmocrat(s). Not the one that I would get to read in a certain novel series (), but cool none the less.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Knight Otu mate!

Interesting description for the Cosmocrat(s). Not the one that I would get to read in a certain novel series (), but cool none the less.

Well I did mention that I was only really using the name.

No chaotarchs I'm afraid; though theres always...

 

[Knight Otu]

I'm quite aware that, for various reasons, you neither can nor want to use the Perry Rhodan cosmocrats.
Of course, if you change timestream to "moral code" (no, this not in a moral way! Think of it more as a "code of evolution", a genetic code for the multiverse), then it could be rather close.

No chaotarchs I'm afraid; though theres always...

... fallen cosmocrats? Propably not .
Of course, a fan theory says that chaotarch are nothing but cosmocrats with a different "alignment".

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Knight Otu mate!

I'm quite aware that, for various reasons, you neither can nor want to use the Perry Rhodan cosmocrats.

Each to ther own. Of course its always nice to give a nod to various influences.

Of course, if you change timestream to "moral code" (no, this not in a moral way! Think of it more as a "code of evolution", a genetic code for the multiverse), then it could be rather close.

They do this as well, you'll see.

... fallen cosmocrats? Propably not .

I was thinking more of the Cogent (Overminds).

Of course, a fan theory says that chaotarch are nothing but cosmocrats with a different "alignment".

I still haven't seen a picture of a (Perry Rhodan) Cosmocrat or Chaotarch. What do they look like?

Incidently I'll get back to my Lucifer rant later tonight (I should be on late since I'm staying up for the chat night tonight).

So if you have any questions on such matters lets thrash them out.