Upper_Krust: Fix This

[thompsja]

Some clarification on the Epic Bestiary, please

Many of the monsters have "divine fire" damage. Where is this defined?

Secondly, the power levels have Disciples, Priests, others, with Old Ones, First Ones and Time Lords. I presume that all of these details will be fully delineated in Ascension?

I haven't read most of these threads... there seems to be a lot of background and assumed knowledge in the PDF, and it so the material isn't always as clear as I'd like it.

For example: the Kosmos seems to assume stars and planets, given the size catagories - Mega and Giga get to planetary sizes, and the Neutronium material, mined from neutron stars.

This may not make into a book, but is it possible for more background it to be put on the website?

I'm awaiting purchasing Ascension.

 

[Axolotl]

Secondly, the power levels have Disciples, Priests, others, with Old Ones, First Ones and Time Lords. I presume that all of these details will be fully delineated in Ascension?

Yes, they are.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there thompsja!

Welcome to the boards!

Many of the monsters have "divine fire" damage. Where is this defined?

It should be defined in the text itself.

For instance, in the Abomination, Amilictli entry it does define divine electricity as half divine damage/half electricity damage.

I am sure I must similarly explain divine power somewhere in the text, if not I apologise. However, there is no great mystery surrounding it - it just means half the effect is divine damage and the other half is of the appropriate energy type.

Secondly, the power levels have Disciples, Priests, others, with Old Ones, First Ones and Time Lords. I presume that all of these details will be fully delineated in Ascension?

Yes...and thanks for stepping in Axolotl mate.

I haven't read most of these threads... there seems to be a lot of background and assumed knowledge in the PDF, and it so the material isn't always as clear as I'd like it.

I think the material in the pdf is pretty inclusive. Of course I am happy to answer questions for people here on these forums (or via email) so I may, on occasion, indirectly expand that material.

For example: the Kosmos seems to assume stars and planets, given the size catagories - Mega and Giga get to planetary sizes, and the Neutronium material, mined from neutron stars.

Well of course you don't have to use my kosmos, just like you don't have to use the great wheel D&D cosmos. But I am glad I was able to pique your curiousity.

This may not make into a book, but is it possible for more background it to be put on the website?

I did actually add the Neutronium material to the website:

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff15.htm

As for expanded material on the kosmos, that will definately happen in a future book (probably Chronicle, although I may have some expanded dimensional information when I detail the other dimensional guardians* in future bestiaries).

Was there any facet of the kosmos that you were particularly interested in?

*Dimensional Guardians

Angels (see Bestiary Volume 1)
Elementars (I honestly haven't decided which book will contain these beings as yet)
Inevitables (Bestiary Volume 3)
Intelligibles (Bestiary Volume 2)
Pseudonaturals (Bestiary Volume 3; also the Akishra and Cogent in Volume 1 and Algol the Demon Star in Gods & Monsters are Pseudonaturals)
Sinistrals (corrupted angels; see the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in Bestiary Volume 2)
Umbrals (Bestiary Volume 2)

I'm awaiting purchasing Ascension.

I appreciate the interest, it shouldn't be too much longer to wait.

 

[thompsja]

it just means half the effect is divine damage and the other half is of the appropriate energy type.

OK, so there is no resistance or immunity to the 'divine' portion of the damage - that's the game effect of divine energy, right?

Was there any facet of the kosmos that you were particularly interested in?

When does a deity become an Old One? Is there a way for new entities to be considered "First Ones'' ? You don't need to answer here, I'll buy the book. I've got a cosmology cooking where some mortals, over centuries and millenia have managed to obtain some divine power. I want to contrast these demigods vs true deities, who completely overmatch them. I'd like some guidance about an approach to that.

By the way, I appreciate you and everyone else for replying. On the release of Ascension, I would like you to take all the time necessary to get it right.

 

[WarDragon]

Elder One, Old One and First One are simply U_K's terms for three tiers of what regular D&D lumps together as "overgods;" the creatures that are to gods, as gods are to mortals. Your mortals who've ascended would probably be in the Disciple to Hero Deity range.

 

[dante58701]

Im definitely gonna have to make the following ruling for all of my future campaigns.

Only humanoids and animals are restrained by physics in regards to Hit Dice.

Particularly since you use magic as a basis for your argument. This would mean all "magical" creatures, by that very definition, should break the rules of Hit Dice. Otherwise, we have no Gorgons, no Illithids, no Glooms or they drop so far in Hit Dice as to be a joke (adding class levels doesnt solve everything since most monsters are fine without them). This just doesnt make sense.

Unless you invent a new subtype called...magical...nearly half of all the monsters in all the books are in serious need of revisions and will be dramatically hurt by this very generalized ruling of yours.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey thompsja!

Yes you were right about divine fire.

Thanks for stepping in WarDragon!

Hey dante dude!

Im definitely gonna have to make the following ruling for all of my future campaigns.

Only humanoids and animals are restrained by physics in regards to Hit Dice.

Particularly since you use magic as a basis for your argument. This would mean all "magical" creatures, by that very definition, should break the rules of Hit Dice. Otherwise, we have no Gorgons, no Illithids, no Glooms or they drop so far in Hit Dice as to be a joke (adding class levels doesnt solve everything since most monsters are fine without them). This just doesnt make sense.

Unless you invent a new subtype called...magical...nearly half of all the monsters in all the books are in serious need of revisions and will be dramatically hurt by this very generalized ruling of yours.

There is no feasible reason why Medusa, Glooms or Illithids should have as many HD as they do. That said I'd make Glooms outsiders.

However there is simply no reason why Medusa or Illithids should have more than three natural hit dice. Illithids are probably trained as Psions at an early age so those that venture up near the surface to capture slaves will likely have a number of Psion levels.

I'd suggest maybe:

3 Base HD plus

- 1d6 Psion levels = Average Illithid
- 1d6+6 Psion levels = Illithid leader
- 1d6+12 Psion levels = Illithid Ruler

I don't see what the real problem is here. Drow never had that many racial hit dice and it never made them any less interesting or powerful villains.

 

[dante58701]

But then there are the extremely high racial modifiers, which make far more sense for higher Hit Dice "magical creatures". Just as constructs, fey, outsiders, and undead are unnatural, so too are most monstrous humanoids and most aberrations. Turning monstrous humanoids into outsiders just because they don't fit the parameters you set forth isn't very good logic. Monstrous humanoids are just that monstrous humanoids. While certainly some would fit the paradigm, not all of them will. You could just modify the paradigm, leaving room for adaptability. Not to mention, turning a monstrous humanoid into an outsider is like throwing gasoline on the fire. They become more powerful and cease to fit the niche that they once fit. the niche of monstrous humanoid. Unless, of course, you were finally willing to concede that there are outsiders that are not gods and that some outsiders (legendary animals being one example you noted as not necessarily being divine) are racial in design, rather than postmortemmetamorphic. e.i. petitioners, which I can't really sink my teeth into. Some outsiders were intended not to be divine in standing, but rather a race of extradimensional alien entities of sorts, who could, by circumstance or design, become divine if they played their cards right. You could of course also concede that extraplanar entities, be they aberration or otherwise, are exempt from such mundane limitations and contrivances of the master plan which has been set forth. This would be accurate since medusa (gorgons) were originally in OSD&D considered to be natives of the elemental plane of earth. This would also apply to glooms (shadow), and other extraplanar beings (illithids, since they come from an alternate or material plane). Drow are a poor example since they have nowhere near the power of such beings and would not be robbed of their abilities, nor are they extraplanar in design. Not to mention, they just so happen to fit the paradigm, rendering drow a moot point at best, and since drow could conceivably acquire more power due to the paradigm, a useless point at worst. While I dont think medusa in particular would be too hurt, I do think Illithids, Gloom, and other alien entities, would be devastated by the stripping of power and the weakening of ability. Other races would simply hit them while they're young and wipe them out from memory, thus destroying the fearsome impact Illithids and other alien entities have on drow and the like.

So in short, it isn't really about them being unable to be interesting or powerful. A kobold on a stick could be interesting and powerful. It's about robbing various species of what they rightfully are due and what they have had throughout the history of the game. While there have been modifications from time to time, in order to keep the flavor, TSR and WOTC have both tried to avoid robbing the races of all their inherent racial abilities. So there must be some way to fix this fatal flaw, without completely decimating entire populations of monsters.

 

[Axolotl]

medusa (gorgons)

Wich do you mean because they are different things.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi dante mate!

But then there are the extremely high racial modifiers, which make far more sense for higher Hit Dice "magical creatures".

What are these extremely high racial modifiers you speak of?

Just as constructs, fey, outsiders, and undead are unnatural, so too are most monstrous humanoids and most aberrations.

I disagree. Humanoids and Aberattaions are not immortal they almost universally need to eat, breathe and sleep.

Thats why they should have 'naturalistic' hit dice.

Turning monstrous humanoids into outsiders just because they don't fit the parameters you set forth isn't very good logic. Monstrous humanoids are just that monstrous humanoids.

I certainly think it would work better for Glooms. I don't like inexplicable Hit Dice for the sake of Hit Dice, which is what you get with regards the Brachyurus, Gloom, Neh-Thallgu, Prismasaurus, Sirrush, Thorciasid and Vermiurge.

Now I am not going to suggest changing them. But what I do suggest is that you don't make the same design 'faux pas' when creating your own monsters.

While certainly some would fit the paradigm, not all of them will. You could just modify the paradigm, leaving room for adaptability.

The system is perfectly adaptable, but at the same time it should make sense.

40 HD for the Sirrush doesn't make a heck of a load of sense to me.

Not to mention, turning a monstrous humanoid into an outsider is like throwing gasoline on the fire. They become more powerful and cease to fit the niche that they once fit. the niche of monstrous humanoid.

They don't become that much more powerful.

Monstrous Humanoid and Magical Beast are the 4th and 3rd best Hit Dice types behind Dragon and Outsider.

Unless, of course, you were finally willing to concede that there are outsiders that are not gods and that some outsiders (legendary animals being one example you noted as not necessarily being divine) are racial in design, rather than postmortemmetamorphic. e.i. petitioners, which I can't really sink my teeth into.

As far as I am concerned all outsiders are spirit beings and technically immortal. That doesn't count people like Tieflings who are mortal and were simply born on the outer planes.

Some outsiders were intended not to be divine in standing, but rather a race of extradimensional alien entities of sorts, who could, by circumstance or design, become divine if they played their cards right. You could of course also concede that extraplanar entities, be they aberration or otherwise, are exempt from such mundane limitations and contrivances of the master plan which has been set forth.

I concede nothing of the kind.

This would be accurate since medusa (gorgons) were originally in OSD&D considered to be natives of the elemental plane of earth.

You see now why you don't try and be cute by supplanting the Medusa race with the name Gorgon, you only end up confusing things.

This would also apply to glooms (shadow), and other extraplanar beings (illithids, since they come from an alternate or material plane). Drow are a poor example since they have nowhere near the power of such beings and would not be robbed of their abilities, nor are they extraplanar in design. Not to mention, they just so happen to fit the paradigm, rendering drow a moot point at best, and since drow could conceivably acquire more power due to the paradigm, a useless point at worst. While I dont think medusa in particular would be too hurt, I do think Illithids, Gloom, and other alien entities, would be devastated by the stripping of power and the weakening of ability.

I already said that illithids would have Psion levels.

Gloom make more sense (at that HD) as outsiders?

What are these other alien entities you speak of?

Other races would simply hit them while they're young and wipe them out from memory,

Is that how nature works - I don't think so.

thus destroying the fearsome impact Illithids and other alien entities have on drow and the like.

Nonsense.

So in short, it isn't really about them being unable to be interesting or powerful.

Knowing what I know about you its 100% about them being powerful!

A kobold on a stick could be interesting and powerful. It's about robbing various species of what they rightfully are due and what they have had throughout the history of the game. While there have been modifications from time to time, in order to keep the flavor, TSR and WOTC have both tried to avoid robbing the races of all their inherent racial abilities.

Is it the same integrity thats seen the Balor go from 8 Hit Dice to 13 and now to 20!?

So there must be some way to fix this fatal flaw, without completely decimating entire populations of monsters.

The quick answer of course is that you don't need to fix it. Just don't make the same mistakes in the future.