Use Magic Device -- THE most potent skill?

Hrrmm... could a Bard or Rogue, using UMD, activate an Amulet of Undead Turning by emulating the Turn Undead class feature of a cleric (DC 20 + "cleric's" level), and so actually turn some undead nasties?

A Rogue's Skill Mastery can work on UMD? Wowie...
 

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Kyramus said:
Magic of a holy nature is derived from a deity.
are you implying that Rogues should be unable to use holy (and, by extension, unholy, chaotic, and lawful) weapons, period?

Also, paladins' own magic doesn't come from "a" deity:
PHB, p. 41:
Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity. Devotion to righteousness is enough for most.
So what's your point there?
 
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Kyramus said:
analogy for the holy sword/paladin emulator rogue.

We are using windows 2k. It has dos emulator. While it does function as dos, it is NOT dos.

For example, I installed an old dos game on windows 2k, even with the emulator, the darn thing won't work.

now back to rogue.
Rogue emulates the detect evil ability of the paladin, it DOES NOT make him a paladin. Rogue then tries to emulate lay on hands (probably with a hidden wand of cure light wounds). That still doesn't make him a Paladin.
Rogue then fakes turning undead (Undead looks at him funny and the sword probably will bop him over the head for trying too many times.
In the end, he's a Rogue, not a Paladin.
And if you are going to argue the case further. Magic of a holy nature is derived from a deity. I think a deity would know if you are trying to bluff it or not and if you persist, I wouldn't like to see what the deity thinks of as humorous to punish you with.

Actually, I've had to deal with this Class vs Class Ability argument and it really is problematic (at least for me).

I have a question, though. Does UMD allow a rogue to use Druid's Vestments? The prereq is 'A druid with at least one use of the Wild Shape ability' or some such. You can emulate the wild shape, but not the being a druid.... but being a druid is the only way to get wild shape... and you are emulating the wild shape ability.. though you don't actually 'have' that one use per day.

If you have a good answer, I'd love to hear the source, so I could clear up this argument that I'm having. Thanks :).
 

Darkness said:
are you implying that Rogues should be unable to use holy (and, by extension, unholy, chaotic, and lawful) weapons, period?

Also, paladins' own magic doesn't come from "a" deity:So what's your point there?

The original case was a rogue using a holy avenger. Simply emulating an ability of a class doesn't qualify him to use said sword.

As for magic within a holy avenger would most undoubtedly be a servant of some sort to a deity. The sword might think of himself as a celestial of a sort.
 

From the SRD
Holy Avenger

In the hands of any character other than a paladin, this sword performs only as a +2 longsword. In the hands of a paladin, this holy (+1d6 points of bonus holy damage against evil creatures) becomes a +5 longsword, creates a spell resistance of 15 in a 5-foot radius, and casts dispel magic (usable every round as a standard action) in a 5-foot radius at the class level of the paladin. (Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of dispel magic.)

Caster Level: 18th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, holy aura, creator must be good; Market Price: 120,315 gp; Cost to Create: 60,315 gp + 4,800 XP.



The rogue would use it as a +2 sword. He is not a paladin even when he is emulating a paladin class ability. No matter how he argues it, the question still returns to Are you a paladin? The answer is no. therefore he can't use it. Neither bluff nor umd will alow him to use the item other than a +2 weapon.

Same thing for the Druid Vestments.
From the SRD, please note thee bolded section. THAT applies to holy avenger and druid vestments with respect to a rogue trying to bluff his way to use an item.
The rogue is simply asking too much off the target, whether the target is intelligent or not.
Assuming the holy avenger or druid vestments aren't intelligent, the the bolded Italicized section applies.
And since both items are NOT creatures. The Rogue can not use the items as if he were of the appropriate class.

(*)Bluff (CHA)

Check: A Bluff check is opposed by the target's Sense Motive check. Favorable and unfavorable circumstances weigh heavily on the outcome of a bluff. Two circumstances can weigh against the character: The bluff is hard to believe, or the action that the target is to take goes against the target's self-interest, nature, personality, orders, etc. If it's important, the DM can distinguish between a bluff that fails because the target doesn't believe it and one that fails because it just asks too much of the target. For instance, if the target gets a +10 bonus because the bluff demands something risky of the target, and the Sense Motive check succeeds by 10 or less, then the target didn't so much see through the bluff as prove reluctant to go along with it. If the target succeeds by 11 or more, he has seen through the bluff (and would have done so even if it had not entailed any demand on him).

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as the character wishes, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that the character wants him to believe.

A bluff requires interaction between the character and the target. Creatures unaware of the character cannot be bluffed. A bluff always takes at least 1 round (and is at least a full-round action) but can take much longer if the character tries something elaborate.
 

Kyramus said:
As for magic within a holy avenger would most undoubtedly be a servant of some sort to a deity. The sword might think of himself as a celestial of a sort.
Only that holy avengers are not intelligent by default. ;)

And why exactly should the magic within a holy avenger "most undoubtedly be a servant of some sort to a deity?"

Judging by the prerequisites to create one, this reasoning certainly isn't supported by the rules (since the only core class that can create one is the cleric, but not all clerics do follow a specific deity; PHB, p. 30).
 

Kyramus said:
The rogue would use it as a +2 sword. He is not a paladin even when he is emulating a paladin class ability.
Heh. I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree here. I guess I need to find more evidence...
 

Ok- I've never actually had to adjudicate this skill in the game before (that's because our only rogue was also a wizard and could use most anything anyhow). I've a few questions...

Say the rogue has to emulate two different things, such as both class and alignment. Does she roll for both, or just the higher DC, or what?

Would multiple rolls require multiple actions? Does even rolling the skill in the first place require it's own action, or is it consider part of activating the item?

What kind of considerations are taken into account with magic scrolls? The rogue would definately have to emulate spell ability. Then she'd have to emulate an ability score, right? Is it possible for her to emulate it well enough to avoid mishap chances, or is there always going to be a chance of miscasting?
 

Byrons_Ghost said:
What kind of considerations are taken into account with magic scrolls? The rogue would definately have to emulate spell ability.
Yep.
Then she'd have to emulate an ability score, right?
If she doesn't have a high enough score in the ability score already, then yes.
Is it possible for her to emulate it well enough to avoid mishap chances, or is there always going to be a chance of miscasting?
Well, mishap chances depend on caster level, don't they? So I think if you emulate a high enough effective caster level, you wouldn't have a miscasting chance...
 

I'd just like to add that Use Magic Device is indeed powerful, especially at high levels - and ooo, look, its an exclusive skill for rogues and bards, who are often considered to be weak, especially at high levels.

It is great for keeping single classed Rogues and Bards up with the programme in higher level adventures.
 

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