Use the Force is Cha-based?! (not...Wis?)

[fireinthedust]

So, um, yeah. Why is the Use the Force skill Cha-based?

I mean, look at Yoda, Mace Windu, and most of the Jedi out there. They're not hot, they're Wise. Sure, I'd go "wow, that dude is a Jedi!" and therefore they're cool... but that doesn't make sense!

To me, at any rate.

Can anyone convince me otherwise? I would love some good reasons why.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So, um, yeah. Why is the Use the Force skill Cha-based?

I mean, look at Yoda, Mace Windu, and most of the Jedi out there. They're not hot, they're Wise. Sure, I'd go "wow, that dude is a Jedi!" and therefore they're cool... but that doesn't make sense!

To me, at any rate.

Can anyone convince me otherwise? I would love some good reasons why.

Did you just say that Samual L Jackson is not cool?

 

[Blackrat]

I've always thought of Charisma as the force of personality and the inner self of an individual. As such it does make some sense for UtF to be charisma based. What I don't really get is why the number of force powers rely on Wisdom modifier instead. It would make more logic to tie both to the same, whichever it is. As such, it makes Jedi suffer a bit from the MADD

 

[delericho]

So, um, yeah. Why is the Use the Force skill Cha-based?

I mean, look at Yoda, Mace Windu, and most of the Jedi out there. They're not hot, they're Wise. Sure, I'd go "wow, that dude is a Jedi!" and therefore they're cool... but that doesn't make sense!

Charisma is primarily about force of personality. That indefinable something about a person that enables them to attract others, to lead others... and even to drive the universe itself to their desired ends. Appearance is actually only a minor component of that (and actually should have been dropped entirely IMO).

Basically, Use the Force works on the same logic that allows D&D Sorcerers to cast spells using their Charisma stat.

Or, to put it another way, Charisma is the 'mental analogue' of Strength - it controls how you influence others. Where Wisdom is the 'mental analogue' of Constitution, controlling how hardy you are, and Intelligence is the 'mental analogue' of Dexterity, controlling how nimble you are. Once you adopt that pattern, and given what Use the Force (and Intimidate, for that matter) actually does, how could it be anything other than Cha-based?

 

[Vigilance]

Charisma is not "hot". Charisma is force of personality.

If Yoda or Mace tells you to jump, you say "how hi" and not *just* because they have power.

Jedi are also frequently called on to negotiate treaties, and we see Obi Wan in Star Wars use the force both to scare the bejeezus out of the Sand People and talk his way past a storm trooper.

The Emperor is all about the seduction of power, but also the ability to appear completely innocent, lying right to Yoda's face for years and never being noticed as the dark lord.

If you look at Jedi as portrayed in the movies, they are all very persuasive individuals with forceful personalities, which equals Charisma in game terms.

 

[fireinthedust]

um... because none of the Jedi compare to, like, Britney Spears. They're based on religious figures, like the wise old guy in the desert who no one likes who turns out to be Obiwan-frickin' Kenobi!!! (that no one is impressed with ever)


Sorceresses are long known to be mega-hot. The whole class (in 3e and 4e now) is designed so that players can be a dumb@$$ and still cast spells. That babe magic-user with the rod of sizzle never set foot in the academy of grognards. She hung out at the beach-loft slash unicorn ranch with the hot paladin, the hot rogue, the hot druid, befriends-cuddly-animals ranger, and the bard. There was giggling.

I mean, when you see someone dressed like a Jedi, do *you* think they have great force of personality? Never! I say this as a twenty-something who bought his wife a lightsabre toy as a romantic gift, no one waving a lightsabre is seen as anywhere near as impressive as they see themselves.

Which, I suppose, explains why the makers of an rpg based on star wars would say UtF should be Cha-based. grrr.


Seriously, tho, I get what you mean about intimidate. I just think it's a limiting factor on the characters who, realistically... well, ok, so I can't think of a horrifically non-charismatic jedi... but stil, y'know? Oh, wait, Luke Skywalker! And Anikin in Episode 1. I like Haden Christiansen (gets more abuse than he deserves, especially considering how much cash gets shelled out at Lucas despite Jar Jar), so I'll leave that to the rest of you.
But yeah, SWSE is so hybrid between 3e and 4e, I wonder if they really thought out enough of the concepts.

 

[Nifft]

I mean, look at Yoda, Mace Windu, and most of the Jedi out there. They're not hot, they're Wise.

um... because none of the Jedi compare to, like, Britney Spears.
[...]
Sorceresses are long known to be mega-hot.

The issue, I think, is that you are conflating Charisma with appearance, and that you are conflating high appearance with being a girl.

- - -

Charisma is responsible for Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. Think of Use the Force as your PC using Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate on the laws of the universe.

Cheers, -- N

 

[fireinthedust]

The issue, I think, is that you are conflating Charisma with appearance, and that you are conflating high appearance with being a girl.

Ok, add to it, then, Jack Black or Christopher Walken. Or Hilary Clinton. Heck, Pierre Trudeau was pretty pug ugly, but he was extremely popular and charismatic. More so than, say, the seven samurai, or The Hidden Fortress, which as we all know is the basis for Star Wars; or, more directly, the powerful Jedi from the movies.

Luke is the hero, but he's not a great leader; he has rank eventually but from the start everyone is running him down. Heck, even when he is a powerful force user in Return of the Jedi, Han laughs at the idea of the plan working out.

Darth Vader, on the other hand, rules through force, sure. But intimidate isn't the same as being charming.

Charisma is responsible for Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. Think of Use the Force as your PC using Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate on the laws of the universe.

Cheers, -- N

I get the analogy, I'm just thinking that it's not the first thing I think of when I hear the phrase "he is Wise in the ways of the Force", or what have you. The likeable halfling Pippin has a higher Cha than Wis, and yet these starts are what let him go into a Force Trance and heal? Like, meditate?

Wisdom is all about Willpower, more so than Charisma ever was or is. Will saves were originally from it, Perception is, and in the d20 CoC game you tally up sanity with your Wis score and multiply it by 5 to get the final number.
Magic back in the day was all about secrets and exerting your will on the universe. Making the Sorcerer was a great idea, but I don't think it's the be-all and end-all of enlightenment.

I don't have to be a great leader to have a deep spirituality, and that's what the Force is all about. Symbolically. I just don't see Jedi as people-persons.


And if a Jedi told you to jump and you said "how high?" it'd be for the same reason you'd say that to Wolverine if he asked you. Or the Hulk. They can really beat you up and have a source of power that might make you uncomfortable.
That's why people like Bards, not Wizards or Swordmages.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Wisdom is the defense part of willpower. It's the stamina of willpower.

Charisma is the strength.

Honestly, the flaw here is that you aren't reading what Charisma is. I'll quote from the book. "It represents actual strength of personality and force of presence, not merely how others perceive you in a social setting."

And honestly, you can have a jedi who doesn't have super high charisma. Almost all your force powers and, indeed, how many force powers you can get, are built off of wisdom.

Wisdom is your ability to understand and utilize the force.

Charisma is your ability to push your will onto it.

Oh, and from a strictly gameplay mechanics look, jedi use both wisdom and charisma because they didn't want any class to be entirely holed up into a single stat. It's also why Burst Fire requires 13 strength.

 

[fireinthedust]

Oh, and from a strictly gameplay mechanics look, jedi use both wisdom and charisma because they didn't want any class to be entirely holed up into a single stat. It's also why Burst Fire requires 13 strength.

yeah. Kinda like how Paladins have so many stats to pile up to be good at every aspect.

Though I think the system works great for anyone with a high Dex (ranged weapons and reflex defense, pilot skill for starships, acrobatics, etc.).
It does mean that there are varied builds for different types of Jedi/force users: lightsabre knight vs. mystic. Physical stats also play in the mix, so a Jedi can use just about every stat in some way.


While I have you lot here, has anyone noted how saga edition works with d20 future cybernetics thrown in? Like, in terms of game play? I'm considering throwing together a Star Wars game night for my regular 4e group (or the SW groupies I know), and I'm wondering what pitfalls I should look out for are. I'm assuming the BAB issue for 3e is going to be there, but I've not had a chance to see it done in play.