Use the Force is Cha-based?! (not...Wis?)

[fireinthedust]

And so, the terrifying old crone (Granny Weatherwax), the tyrannical drill sergeant (was it Zim in Starship Troopers?), and the monstrous tyrant (any number from our history) are all examples of high Charisma, despite not being 'hot', or being popular, or being nice.

Yes, but...

I think there is something to be said for characters who do these things without a high Charisma. Being trained in a skill, for example, can make up a lot of ground. Many PCs have a massive effect on the world around them without a high Cha. I'm not basing the idea of UtF being Cha on this, but it is a sign of how general and limited Cha and other attributes are in describing a person.
Keep in mind that *only* Force users have Cha as the determinant of effect on the physical rather than the social.

but yeah, seeing it as the side of the force that "obeys your commands" does hint at Cha, or a play between Cha and Wis. I wouldn't have thought to do that, but I can see it as a balancing point.


Thanee: Shadowrun Astral Space isn't the only place this has been used. Ravenloft's Dreamlands, and in fact AD&D Astral and Ethereal travel have used stats in that way. I'd be interested in comparing dates (was it Shadowrun first, or D&D).

 

[ValhallaGH]

One other point to keep in mind:
Charisma determines the strength of your Force control, as it is the key ability for Use the Force.
Wisdom determines the variety / depth of your Force control, as it is the source of extra powers from Force Training.
Which is why wise Jedi are scary; they have a boatload of powers to whomp you with.

Mechanically, dumping all of that onto Wisdom (in addition to a number of good skills and Will defenses) would have made it the best ability score in the game. And left Charisma out in the cold, useful only for those that don't use "Aggressive Negotiations".

 

[fireinthedust]

Question: is there an ideal set of stats for a Jedi?

Like, if I have a combat Jedi in mind, do I want only enough Force Powers to select the ones I need, then pump the rest into Cha and Str or Dex (for weapon finesse/lightsabre mashing)?
In actual play, mind you, not just arena monster-smashing.

I'm thinking of the 3e example of a Fighter with Power Attack and fortification armor, who can hit just about anything by level 10, and then overcome most foes with massive damage in a round/monster.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Jedi in SAGA suffer terribly from MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency).

They require at least some Wisdom and Charisma if you want the to be able to use force powers with any sort of reliability. They require Strength and Dexterity to be effective with their lightsabers. They require Con because, well let's face it, Jedi often have big blinking targets over their heads in many Starwars games. They require Intelligence to make up for their entirely pitiful skill selection.

So... Ideally, Jedi should have incredibly good stats across the board. Since that is usually not an option, I'd say that you would be best off choosing whether you want to be a beat-down style jedi, or a force-wizard style jedi, then make Str - Con or Wis - Cha your primary stats... And you'll just have to suffer with the rest of your attributes.

 

[Nifft]

Question: is there an ideal set of stats for a Jedi?

Nope. There are many different tools in the Jedi's kit, and you will never be able to use all of them. So don't even try.

Know you'll need a bunch of feats for your chosen combat style? That means you will not have a bunch of feats to spend on Force Training. So you'd better either have a high Wisdom, or you'd better not care much about Force powers.

Do your chosen Force Powers have attack rolls? If yes, do you expect to use them against tough targets? If so, you may want some Charisma. If not, don't worry so much about Charisma.

Int is important for skills -- so [bIInt saves you Talents[/b], since you don't have to spend a Talent to use UTF in place of a skill if you're already trained in that skill. For example, you don't need Force Pilot if you are already trained in the Pilot skill.

Basically, look at what you want to do with your dude, see which Feats & Talents you need to get that done, and then look at what you have left to spend.

Cheers, -- N

 

[fireinthedust]

So deciding what kind of Jedi you'd like to be at the start is important: a pilot, a sabre-smasher, a force-wizard, all of these need different stats; plus based on the force powers wanted. I think this is good, if only because it gives the broader range of Jedi-types one would expect; a very catch-all class. This, in a way, reaffirms the d20 version's split between the force-wizard and the guardian. I like that.


So Int & Con are the secondary stats, with a decision about whether Cha/Wis or Str/Dex are the primaries? Would that be an accurate assumption?

 

[hero4hire]

Lindsay Lohan? Amy Winehouse? The Fonze? Eeeeeeeh!

Firstly, Use the Force is a Trained-only skill, and clearly none of the above have any training in the skill. So, that's that problem solved.

Alright..Everyone knows the Fonz uses the Force! How else can you explain his ability to turn on or fix mechanical objects with a fist bump!

He could even block Mork from Ork's Nano-nano powers with his "cool"...

 

[pawsplay]

At a basic level, all Jedi should aim to have at least Con 12, Wis 12, and Cha 12. Wis 12+ is mandatory so you get at least two powers per Force Training, and Cha is for basic parity on your Use the Force checks. If you want to play a "force wizard" at 1st level, Humans are good, since you can get Skill Focus (Use the Force) as well as Force Training. At 2nd level, anyone can have Skill Focus.

Block and Deflection are nice powers, but at high levels, Lightsaber Defense is numerically superior.

This is a site I have abandoned, but feel free to look at the Jedi archetypes for inspiration:

Star Wars Saga Edition

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Jedi in SAGA suffer terribly from MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency).

Yes and no.

If you're trying to do everything with your jedi, yeah, you need stats in everything. But you aren't supposed to be doing everything.

If you're going as a standard fightan jedi, then most of your powers have static DCs, and raising charisma isn't really that neccesary. You're most likely either going dex+wis or str+wis, or MAYBE str+con/dex+con (keep in mind, jedi have the biggest health pool).

Really, the big flaw to jedi fightan isn't charisma or MAD, it's actions. You're most likely using up your swift to keep a buff on you, so full round actions are going to be far and few between. That's why jedi fightan types are honestly better skipping double attack or dual weapon training, which in turn gives them more feats to use.

 

[Xphile]

Jedi in SAGA suffer terribly from MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency).

They require at least some Wisdom and Charisma if you want the to be able to use force powers with any sort of reliability. They require Strength and Dexterity to be effective with their lightsabers. They require Con because, well let's face it, Jedi often have big blinking targets over their heads in many Starwars games. They require Intelligence to make up for their entirely pitiful skill selection.

So... Ideally, Jedi should have incredibly good stats across the board. Since that is usually not an option, I'd say that you would be best off choosing whether you want to be a beat-down style jedi, or a force-wizard style jedi, then make Str - Con or Wis - Cha your primary stats... And you'll just have to suffer with the rest of your attributes.

Honestly, what you just said suggests to me a "Want to be everything syndrome". If this was 4e and we were having this discussion... you just described a character wanting to be a Wizard, Fighter and Rogue... all rolled into one class and with all of the benefits of each. I will admit that I haven't played SW Saga yet (as I'm stalking these posts to determine if I want to start a campaign with it), but I do find it rather silly to believe that you can make a character that is the best, or even good, at everything.

In SW Canon itself, Jedi rarely has mastery over physical combat, the force and misc skills. There are a few (Yoda) who are portrayed as having this, but it is a rare exception. Look at Episode 3, where a group of Jedi Masters are slain quite easily by Darth Sidious. While these masters probably were good with the force or misc skills, they definitely showed that their light saber combat skills were lacking.