Use the Force is Cha-based?! (not...Wis?)
- Thread starter fireinthedust
- Start date
fireinthedust
Explorer
I always do!
as for having an open mind: I can see what's being argued. I personally don't know if it's enough for a mechanical requirement for a class, but I can see it being important.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I thought using the force was utterly about how many microbes you have in your blood...
MarkB
Legend
I'm not familiar with d20 Future Cybernetics, but what are you looking to get from them that's not currently in Saga? The last couple of Saga books have significantly boosted the possible applications of cybernetics in the game, with Galaxy At War introducing the full-body cyberfication and the option to apply droid accessories to cybernetic limbs, followed by Scavenger's Guide to Droids providing a rich new source of such components.
fireinthedust
Explorer
Lindsay Lohan? Amy Winehouse? The Fonze? Eeeeeeeh!
Agreed. I can't think of any Jedi who would have a low Cha, actually, but I don't know of too many outside the shows and novels. They're all larger than life, though, despite their foibles. Even Starkiller, who isn't a people person, has a strong personality; from that side of things, I can totally understand the point. Mental over physical, for sure; otherwise, it's Con, which isn't much better.
Cybernetics: I just happen to have d20 future and d20 Cybernetics. I wanted to know if they mesh well with SAGA, as I'd rather use what I have.
Are the cybernetics rules any good? Either one.
Also: anyone know of any great Jedi builds? Or other PC builds, like the epic thief, or Space Gladiator-type soldier, or another build that works?
delericho
Legend
Another thing to consider is that very few activities are clearly and exclusively the province of a single attribute.
Consider the following:
I play the bagpipes. This is an application of the Perform skill, which is rightly Cha-based (music necessarily reflects my personality). However, there is also an obvious application of Dexterity there (as the notes are made by finger positionings, and played at speed), Intelligence (it's a rote instrument, so all the tunes have to be memorised), Strength (to blow the bag and get it to play), Constitution (playing for a long time, especially on the march, is tiring), and even Wisdom (while playing with a band, it is important to remain focussed on the matter at hand, and make sure I'm playing exactly the same as the others).
Yesterday, I found myself watching ballet. Again, an application of Perform (Charisma). But, again, this clearly required Dexterity and Strength on the part of the performers, plus the Intelligence to memorise their cues, and the Constitution to dance for two hours or so.
Or consider a game of basketball. Is this Strength (for the running and jumping), Dexterity (accuracy in passes and shots, moving past opponents), Constitution (playing for the full match), Intelligence (the coach's understanding of tactics, the players reading the game), Wisdom (again, the coach knowing when to switch players, and which switches to make), or even Charisma (faking out opponents, intimidation, trash talk, or other aspects of gamesmanship)?
Even my own job (software engineer) is heavily influenced by Wisdom (the rigour to do the job right, understanding of the whole problem...), Intelligence (the problem solving aspects themselves, and even Charisma (the software I right absolutely reflects my own personality).
For the sake of simple mechanics, the designers of d20 tied each skill to a single attribute. That's not to say that the others aren't relevant; they merely chose the 'best fit' skill in each case.
And so, with "Use the Force" they selected Charisma, because the d20 system defines that as the 'active' mental stat, the one used for imposing yourself on the universe. It's not that Wisdom is irrelevant; it was merely that Charisma was considered the best fit.
Firstly, Use the Force is a Trained-only skill, and clearly none of the above have any training in the skill. So, that's that problem solved.
Secondly, I'm wondering how much of this is a disconnect about the definition of Charisma in d20. It's not just a measure of how hot you are, and nor even is it purely a measure of how popular, or even how nice, you are. Charisma is a measure of your force of personality, of your ability to drive others (and, by extension, the universe itself) to do as you will. As I said above, it is the "mental analogue" of Strength.
And so, the terrifying old crone (Granny Weatherwax), the tyrannical drill sergeant (was it Zim in Starship Troopers?), and the monstrous tyrant (any number from our history) are all examples of high Charisma, despite not being 'hot', or being popular, or being nice.
Consider the following:
I play the bagpipes. This is an application of the Perform skill, which is rightly Cha-based (music necessarily reflects my personality). However, there is also an obvious application of Dexterity there (as the notes are made by finger positionings, and played at speed), Intelligence (it's a rote instrument, so all the tunes have to be memorised), Strength (to blow the bag and get it to play), Constitution (playing for a long time, especially on the march, is tiring), and even Wisdom (while playing with a band, it is important to remain focussed on the matter at hand, and make sure I'm playing exactly the same as the others).
Yesterday, I found myself watching ballet. Again, an application of Perform (Charisma). But, again, this clearly required Dexterity and Strength on the part of the performers, plus the Intelligence to memorise their cues, and the Constitution to dance for two hours or so.
Or consider a game of basketball. Is this Strength (for the running and jumping), Dexterity (accuracy in passes and shots, moving past opponents), Constitution (playing for the full match), Intelligence (the coach's understanding of tactics, the players reading the game), Wisdom (again, the coach knowing when to switch players, and which switches to make), or even Charisma (faking out opponents, intimidation, trash talk, or other aspects of gamesmanship)?
Even my own job (software engineer) is heavily influenced by Wisdom (the rigour to do the job right, understanding of the whole problem...), Intelligence (the problem solving aspects themselves, and even Charisma (the software I right absolutely reflects my own personality).
For the sake of simple mechanics, the designers of d20 tied each skill to a single attribute. That's not to say that the others aren't relevant; they merely chose the 'best fit' skill in each case.
And so, with "Use the Force" they selected Charisma, because the d20 system defines that as the 'active' mental stat, the one used for imposing yourself on the universe. It's not that Wisdom is irrelevant; it was merely that Charisma was considered the best fit.
Firstly, Use the Force is a Trained-only skill, and clearly none of the above have any training in the skill. So, that's that problem solved.
Secondly, I'm wondering how much of this is a disconnect about the definition of Charisma in d20. It's not just a measure of how hot you are, and nor even is it purely a measure of how popular, or even how nice, you are. Charisma is a measure of your force of personality, of your ability to drive others (and, by extension, the universe itself) to do as you will. As I said above, it is the "mental analogue" of Strength.
And so, the terrifying old crone (Granny Weatherwax), the tyrannical drill sergeant (was it Zim in Starship Troopers?), and the monstrous tyrant (any number from our history) are all examples of high Charisma, despite not being 'hot', or being popular, or being nice.
Blackrat
He Who Lurks Beyond The Veil
You know, I really like this comparison. I'm still teaching the game to a couple of "newbs" who have not yet formed complete picture of the workings of the stats in their minds. I'm going to explain them this way for them. Thanks.
Thanee
First Post
Yes.
Bye
Thanee
P.S. @Blackrat: You clearly do not know Shadowrun (the attributes are called differently there, but match pretty closely, at least up to 3rd edition; and that analogy is pretty much exactly one of the core principles of Shadowrun astral space; the mental attributes represent the physical attributes there).
fireinthedust
Explorer
Actually, it was more a comment about Microbes... (*cough* THESE ARE THE JOKES, PEOPLE! is this thing on? Check, check "sibilance")
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