Use the Force is Cha-based?! (not...Wis?)

[ValhallaGH]

Can anyone convince me otherwise?

Not unless you approach it with an open mind.

Have fun with your baiting.

 

[fireinthedust]

Not unless you approach it with an open mind.

Have fun with your baiting.

I always do!


as for having an open mind: I can see what's being argued. I personally don't know if it's enough for a mechanical requirement for a class, but I can see it being important.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I thought using the force was utterly about how many microbes you have in your blood...

 

[pawsplay]

Maybe a high Cha helps you attract microbes.

There are certainly good arguments why the Force should not be based on Cha, but Yoda and Mace Windu are not that argument. They should both rate a very high Cha.

 

[MarkB]

While I have you lot here, has anyone noted how saga edition works with d20 future cybernetics thrown in? Like, in terms of game play? I'm considering throwing together a Star Wars game night for my regular 4e group (or the SW groupies I know), and I'm wondering what pitfalls I should look out for are. I'm assuming the BAB issue for 3e is going to be there, but I've not had a chance to see it done in play.

I'm not familiar with d20 Future Cybernetics, but what are you looking to get from them that's not currently in Saga? The last couple of Saga books have significantly boosted the possible applications of cybernetics in the game, with Galaxy At War introducing the full-body cyberfication and the option to apply droid accessories to cybernetic limbs, followed by Scavenger's Guide to Droids providing a rich new source of such components.

 

[fireinthedust]

Maybe a high Cha helps you attract microbes.

Lindsay Lohan? Amy Winehouse? The Fonze? Eeeeeeeh!

There are certainly good arguments why the Force should not be based on Cha, but Yoda and Mace Windu are not that argument. They should both rate a very high Cha.

Agreed. I can't think of any Jedi who would have a low Cha, actually, but I don't know of too many outside the shows and novels. They're all larger than life, though, despite their foibles. Even Starkiller, who isn't a people person, has a strong personality; from that side of things, I can totally understand the point. Mental over physical, for sure; otherwise, it's Con, which isn't much better.


Cybernetics: I just happen to have d20 future and d20 Cybernetics. I wanted to know if they mesh well with SAGA, as I'd rather use what I have.
Are the cybernetics rules any good? Either one.


Also: anyone know of any great Jedi builds? Or other PC builds, like the epic thief, or Space Gladiator-type soldier, or another build that works?

 

[delericho]

Another thing to consider is that very few activities are clearly and exclusively the province of a single attribute.

Consider the following:

I play the bagpipes. This is an application of the Perform skill, which is rightly Cha-based (music necessarily reflects my personality). However, there is also an obvious application of Dexterity there (as the notes are made by finger positionings, and played at speed), Intelligence (it's a rote instrument, so all the tunes have to be memorised), Strength (to blow the bag and get it to play), Constitution (playing for a long time, especially on the march, is tiring), and even Wisdom (while playing with a band, it is important to remain focussed on the matter at hand, and make sure I'm playing exactly the same as the others).

Yesterday, I found myself watching ballet. Again, an application of Perform (Charisma). But, again, this clearly required Dexterity and Strength on the part of the performers, plus the Intelligence to memorise their cues, and the Constitution to dance for two hours or so.

Or consider a game of basketball. Is this Strength (for the running and jumping), Dexterity (accuracy in passes and shots, moving past opponents), Constitution (playing for the full match), Intelligence (the coach's understanding of tactics, the players reading the game), Wisdom (again, the coach knowing when to switch players, and which switches to make), or even Charisma (faking out opponents, intimidation, trash talk, or other aspects of gamesmanship)?

Even my own job (software engineer) is heavily influenced by Wisdom (the rigour to do the job right, understanding of the whole problem...), Intelligence (the problem solving aspects themselves, and even Charisma (the software I right absolutely reflects my own personality).

For the sake of simple mechanics, the designers of d20 tied each skill to a single attribute. That's not to say that the others aren't relevant; they merely chose the 'best fit' skill in each case.

And so, with "Use the Force" they selected Charisma, because the d20 system defines that as the 'active' mental stat, the one used for imposing yourself on the universe. It's not that Wisdom is irrelevant; it was merely that Charisma was considered the best fit.

Lindsay Lohan? Amy Winehouse? The Fonze? Eeeeeeeh!

Firstly, Use the Force is a Trained-only skill, and clearly none of the above have any training in the skill. So, that's that problem solved.

Secondly, I'm wondering how much of this is a disconnect about the definition of Charisma in d20. It's not just a measure of how hot you are, and nor even is it purely a measure of how popular, or even how nice, you are. Charisma is a measure of your force of personality, of your ability to drive others (and, by extension, the universe itself) to do as you will. As I said above, it is the "mental analogue" of Strength.

And so, the terrifying old crone (Granny Weatherwax), the tyrannical drill sergeant (was it Zim in Starship Troopers?), and the monstrous tyrant (any number from our history) are all examples of high Charisma, despite not being 'hot', or being popular, or being nice.

 

[Blackrat]

Or, to put it another way, Charisma is the 'mental analogue' of Strength - it controls how you influence others. Where Wisdom is the 'mental analogue' of Constitution, controlling how hardy you are, and Intelligence is the 'mental analogue' of Dexterity, controlling how nimble you are. Once you adopt that pattern, and given what Use the Force (and Intimidate, for that matter) actually does, how could it be anything other than Cha-based?

You know, I really like this comparison. I'm still teaching the game to a couple of "newbs" who have not yet formed complete picture of the workings of the stats in their minds. I'm going to explain them this way for them. Thanks.

 

[Thanee]

Why is the Use the Force skill Cha-based?

Yes.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. @Blackrat: You clearly do not know Shadowrun (the attributes are called differently there, but match pretty closely, at least up to 3rd edition; and that analogy is pretty much exactly one of the core principles of Shadowrun astral space; the mental attributes represent the physical attributes there).

 

[fireinthedust]

Firstly, Use the Force is a Trained-only skill, and clearly none of the above have any training in the skill. So, that's that problem solved.

Actually, it was more a comment about Microbes... (*cough* THESE ARE THE JOKES, PEOPLE! is this thing on? Check, check "sibilance")