Useless spells because of durations

[sfedi]

I’ve noticed in several occasions that we didn’t use certain spells not because of their effects, but because their duration made them difficult to put to good use.
Maybe, we are missing some aspect of the spell to make it more useful in it’s short life.

Some spells in case:

Ventriloquism
Speak with Animals
Detect Secret Doors (maybe it’s fine when you only do this on a cleared dungeon)
Detect Undead (Detect Evil would seem superior, although not 100% of undeads are Evil)
Discern Lies
Speak With XXX

A similar topic would be spells that are very weak at low levels because of it’s duration (and thus, difficult to use in potions/wands /scrolls with a reasonable cost):

Summoning I

 

[bweenie]

A similar topic would be spells that are very weak at low levels because of it’s duration (and thus, difficult to use in potions/wands /scrolls with a reasonable cost):

Summoning I

why not just create the scroll at a higher level and make it cost more.

 

[Saeviomagy]

why not just create the scroll at a higher level and make it cost more.

Why should you have to? You don't need to for most other low-level spells. Why for this one in particular?

Because summon monster I is crappy at low level. That's the reason.

It's a flaw with the spell, not with making scrolls out of it.

Detect undead should probably be a 0 level spell it's so limited.

Detect secret doors is actually quite a good spell - auto success on (multiple) search checks for secrets is nothing to be sneezed at.

Ventriloquism is just a crappy spell. Again, it should be 0 level.

Discern lies is, again, a crappy spell. It looks like it's been badly written from the start - as an example, it's got multiple targets, but requires concentration on individuals. It's clearly meant for conversation (which, as defined by diplomacy and the like, is measured in minutes), but it's duration is in rounds. It's also clearly inferior to the lower level "zone of truth" in absolutely every way possible.

The speak with XXX spells are really good, but are entirely dependant upon your DM not being a jerk. If your DM is a jerk, they're no less useful than interrogating the bad guy in the normal way.

 

[sfedi]

The speak with XXX spells are really good, but are entirely dependant upon your DM not being an arse. If your DM is an arse, they're no less useful than interrogating the bad guy in the normal way.

1 min/lvl isn't a bit too short for a normal conversation/interrogation?
(think about levels 3-7)

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Speak with Animals is very useful, even at low levels, for a druid. There are times when you need to tell your animal companion something more complicated than you can convey with the Handle Animal skill. And you can say quite a bit in a minute or two.

 

[Saeviomagy]

1 min/lvl isn't a bit too short for a normal conversation/interrogation?
(think about levels 3-7)

I think it's enough for a conversation with something that doesn't have complex drives.

eg - you use speak with animals. If your GM isn't a jerk, the animal has no real reason to not speak with you, or answer your questions. It might be in a hurry, but then you're only taking a minute anyway. Offer it some food if you must. Ask simple and to-the-point questions.

If your DM is a jerk, the spell runs out before the monkey finishes telling you his amusing banana story and you gain nothing.

Similarly - if you interrogate a suspect, and your GM isn't a jerk, you'll likely get the truth out of him with a few well placed questions, backed up by sense motive and bluff and diplomacy. Questions about what the boss looks like, layout of the complex etc will likely find ready and fairly detailed answers.

If he's a jerk, the suspect has absolutely no knowledge of what you're talking about, despite being hired by the evil organisation in question. If asked about the layout of the complex, he's never left the room you found him in. If asked about his boss, he's never seen him.

 

[Hammerhead]

Can we please stop using the word "arse"?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Can we please stop using the word "arse"?

Done as best as I can.

 

[Delemental]

If your DM is a jerk, the spell runs out before the monkey finishes telling you his amusing banana story and you gain nothing.

If he's a jerk, the suspect has absolutely no knowledge of what you're talking about, despite being hired by the evil organisation in question. If asked about the layout of the complex, he's never left the room you found him in. If asked about his boss, he's never seen him.

I think that in cases where the DM is doing this, it would imply that he or she is not running an investigation, social-heavy game, but rather one in which players are expected to hit first and ask questions later, if at all. In this case, then yes these spells are not useful, and should be discarded in favor of spells that would matter to this play style, like magic missile or sleep.

I would hope that if a DM wants you to talk to NPCs (including animals) for information or to interrogate prisoners, he or she would allow that to happen and keep in mind the limits of the spells you are using.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would hope that if a DM wants you to talk to NPCs (including animals)...

Whaddya mean, we gotta talk to this lynx!? The last monster we talked to ate half the party!

-Hyp.