D&D 4E Using 4e Monsters With the Retroclones

[smathis]

(Note, I originally posted this on RPG.net. Matrix Sorcica suggested I post it here too. Have fun and keep those dice rolling!)

Yup. I'm one of THOSE PEOPLE. You know the ones who like chocolate and peanut butter but maybe not enough to only like one or the other until some middle-aged Justin Bieber fan barrels past me to catch his new hairdo on CNN while I'm waiting in line for a sandwich and next thing you know I got a Hershey bar in a pot of thick, creamy Jiff. Mmmm.

I know by posting this I'm failing all sorts of doctrinal purity tests and will probably sterilize Mike Mearls. But, well, I'd be surprised if I was the first person who'd thought about this.

I'm just not that genius.

So one of the thing I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really like about 4e are the monsters. They finally make sense. And they're fun. And fighting an Orc isn't the same as fighting a Goblin or a Gnoll. So I really didn't want to go back to a retroclone to revisit the days of monsters differentiated solely by, well, what did differentiate them?

So I did this. And because I'm LAZY as hell. Or at least don't have the time (with a family, job and very realistic waking hallucinations - which might explain the family and job) I used to when I had no family, no job and sat around singing "All By Myself" and drinking cough syrup into the wee hours. Where was I? Oh yes. Because I'm LAZY (at least when it comes to diversions), it had to be something I could use on the fly.

I've used it with C&C and Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Heretofore called LotFP to protect the innocent. Mainly using monsters from the Monster Vault. I have no idea if the space-time continuum collapses on itself if it's used with Monsters from MM1, MM2 or any of the online stuff. And I eschew all culpability if such is the case.

But it was awful fun with C&C and LotFP. I'd guess the trick is the retroclone in question needs ascending AC. No THAC0. And, well, I'm drawing a blank. So no THAC0 in your retroclone and you're good. Most of them offer ascending AC these days so there ya go.

Here's the gist of it...

• Subtract 1/2 Level + 4 from AC
  
• Lower damage. Oh this is the trickiest part. Divide the number of dice in half. So 2d6 becomes 1d6, 4d8 becomes 2d8. If there's a remainder, keep the leftover die and lower all dice by one type. So 3d8 becomes 2d6. And 1d6 becomes 1d4. I hope that makes sense. It probably doesn't. Also lower bonuses to damage by one-half (rounded down as 4e is wont to do). So 3d6+5 on a 5th level monster converts to 2d4+2.
  
• Keep an eye on the damage too. This conversion isn't perfect.
  
• The monster's "Hit Dice" are his Level divided in half (rounded down). I use this to determine saves and hit points too.
  
• Hit Points equal 5 x LVL for normal monsters, 2 X LVL for minions, 8 x LVL for elite, 10 x LVL for solos
  
• The monsters get all their Traits, Triggered Actions, etc. Adjust down damage if the traits deal damage. (see below as well)
  
• In the event that you run across one of those antiquated monsters with a rechargeable power, roll the recharge before combat to find out what powers the monster can use during combat. The powers don't recharge during combat. They're one use things subject to the same damage modifications listed above. This is a great thing to do before the game starts. As well as writing damage conversions in the margin.
  
• Ignore attributes and skills. They just tell you what the monster could be good at.

Tricky Things

• Minor, Move and Standard Actions: Most retroclones offer a move and attack. For my converted monsters, they can use a move or a minor and then they get their standard attack (or can substitute it with one of the others. Hasn't caused a problem so far.
  
• Power Level: Gauging the power level of adversaries versus intrepid adventurers was always tricky in older editions. And this is no different. Assume the monsters will be a little buffer than normal (because they will be) and don't be afraid to scale back.
  
• Saving Throws: The monster's Hit Dice should give you saves. Just use those. Or have it save as a Wizard or Fighter of a comparable level if not.
  
• Initiative: This I've pretty much handwaved. It varies so significantly from one retroclone to the next. I ignore the initiative bonus in most cases. Or just eyeball something that looks right to me. Being familiar with your retroclone of choice is helpful here. In LotFP, it's a non-issue. In C&C, just go off the DEX SCORE not the funky bonus listed beside it. So a 12 (+4) DEX monster would just get a +1 to Initiative. Not a +4. The same can be done with other stats. But I've rarely found it necessary.
  
• To-Hit Bonus: I'm guilty of just using Hit Dice for this. Just all by itself. Easier. For tougher monsters it's probably better to cut the existing bonus in half and add requisite ability bonus (using system of choice's bonus system).
  
• Attacks not versus AC: Depending on the attack, it's either against AC or an auto-hit. Saves for half damage. I use my judgment to determine what save is what.
  
• Conditions: Ugh. This can be really tricky. Most conditions equate to something in an older edition. Prone, Immobilized, Blinded, Dazed, Stunned. It's usually not hard to figure out. The tricky part is duration. How long they last. I usually default to 1 round, 1d3 rounds or 1d4 rounds based on how bad the condition is and how poorly the save was rolled. I've really only hit this with the MV monsters once or twice. Some effects, like Ongoing Damage, can be saved against like normal. But I usually put a cap of 3 rounds or failed saves on them.
  
• Ongoing Damage: 5 is 1 point. 10 is 2 points. 15 is 3 points. Etc. I'd be likely to treat Aura attacks similarly.
  
• Vulnerability: I usually keep this the same. A lot more bang for the buck. But that's kind of fun.
  
• Resistance: Cut in half like damage. So Fire Resistance 5 becomes Fire Resistance 2. Cold Resistance 10 becomes Cold Resistance 5.
  
• Squares and stuff: So a square is 5'. And converting movement with this in mind is a little easier. I try to keep to the spirit of the movement power, however. A monster that can teleport 6 squares as an encounter power can basically pop in behind any character in a 30' x 30' room. And that's generally how I play it. Something like the Kobold's Shifty trait just makes the Kobold a pain in the butt to flank and not get flanked. So I assume two or more Kobolds are always flanking a PC. And I also assume that a character will probably get whacked trying to break a flank with anything other than a cautious full-round action. I also assume that it takes a move action (a.k.a. a "shift") to close on a Kobold one-to-one. I assume they're always moving out of the way.

Example:
The Gnoll on pg. 142 of the Monster Vault (Converted)
HD: 2
HP: 10
AC: 12
Speed: 40'
Init: +3 (or +4 depending on system)
Traits
Pack Attack deals 2 damage

Standard Actions
Handaxe: +5 (1d6+1/1d6+3 while bloodied)
Longbow: +5 (1d8+4/1d8+5 while bloodied)
* - Yes, I still do "bloodied"
** - This is a great example of a monster I would do on the fly. I did, in fact.

Elder Black Dragon on pg. 74 of the Monster Vault (Converted)
HD: 9
HP: 90
AC: 19 (32 - (9+4))
Speed: 40' (fly/swim/walk)
Resist: 7 acid
Init: +6
Traits
Acid blood: Adjacent creatures take 5 damage when it gets bloodied
Aquatic: As written
Instinctive Devouring: Free bite, charge or shaking off of mind effect at Initiative 16.
Action Recovery: Effects on dragon end at the end of its turn. This could suck.

Standard Actions
Bite: +16 (2d8+5 damage and ongoing 5 acid damage) (Ongoing 5 acid damage on a miss). Reach of 15'
Claw: (Two attacks) +16 (2d8+5 damage). Reach of 15'
Acid Gob: +17 (Target takes 15 acid damage ongoing and is blinded. Save averts). Range of 50'
Breath Weapon: (only useable if a 5 or 6 is rolled before combat) No attack roll. (2d8+2 acid damage and ongoing 7 acid damage. Save dodges ongoing damage and cuts other damage in half). 25' x 25' blast.
Shroud of Gloom: (only useable if 6 is rolled before combat). No attack. Makes vulnerable 5 and -2 to hit. Characters should probably get a Will save or Save vs. Spells to avoid. Burst out to 25'.

Triggered
Tail Sweep: When an enemy misses the dragon with a melee attack. +15 (1d8+2 damage and target falls prone. Everyone next to target takes 5 damage.)
Bloodied Breath: Dragon fires off breath weapon when bloodied

* - This dragon is an example of a monster I would nevah, evah, evah convert on the fly. Nosiree Bob. I just wouldn't do it. Still the conversion took me all of, what, 20 minutes? Not too bad if I'm itching for a fun dragon fight.

And let's face it. These powers are, IMO, way easier to deal with than trying to look up what "casting like a 7th level Wizard" means. I mean, do you want to spend 20 minutes doing this or 30+ making a spell list for the Dragon?

YMMV but I'm partial to this...

Oh, and I'd like to add. Combats with these converted monsters are comparably as entertaining as fights in 4e but significantly shorter in duration. In fact, a monster like the Dragon isn't likely to get to use all his bells and whistles before he's dropped or the party gets TPK'd.

 

[smathis]

(And here's a Q&A from Arioch on the other thread re: minions)

Awesome idea, thank you for sharing it!
And now, to fuel the heresy in this thread: do you also use minions following the same guidelines?

You know, I haven't used minions yet.

I would assume they'd convert pretty much the same. Apply the same damage guidelines and I'd think it would be in the right ballpark. The big things are AC, Damage and Hit Points. I skirt the Hit Points issue by determining Hit Dice from Level. And that doesn't matter in the case of minions.

The way AC is done should get most monsters down into the 10-24 range. Except for some epic tier ones. And those aren't really good for on-the-fly conversion. Honestly, PCs should probably just run from those guys. AC can go a little low though. So if I have, say, a type of Kobold that winds up with 8 or 9 in AC, I'll usually enforce an Armor Class "floor" where I just say the AC can't be lower than 10 (or 12 in LotFP). Some minions might run up against that.

Damage is pretty covered. Mostly because I spent most of my time rolling it. Older version monsters do so little damage compared to 4e. Even with the conversion, these monsters are still really tough sometimes. But tough as in "doing lots of damage". Not "having 800 hit points". That makes for more challenging, exciting and quicker fights. Anyone who's playing 4e probably already knows that. Cutting damage in half for minions that don't roll it should be fine. Applying the damage roll conversion will work for the others.

I'd probably treat all minions as 1-1 HD creatures for the purposes of the extra attacks and/or damage that Fighters tend to get against such creatures in some of the retroclones. That would make Fighters minion slayers extraordinaire. And would give a really good reason to throw more and more minions their way.

I'd like to add that the conversion really isn't that bad even though there's all these caveats and edge cases. If you do a 5-10 with paper and pencil, you'll get the hang of it and a lot of this becomes just second nature. Not all these caveats apply to all 4e monsters. Or even most of them. The solos like the Dragon are tough, sure. But I'd say those shouldn't be done on the fly. But Orcs? Goblins? Skeletons? Easy-peasy. And far more colorful (and fun) than their older edition counterparts, IMO.

 

[smathis]

Grrr. This should've probably gone in the "Creature Catalogue" sub-forum. My bad. I'm cool if the mods move it.

Thanks in advance to any helpful admin that rolls high on initiative.