Using a Beholder for the first time.

[pallandrome]

Here's a question, can beholders fly upside down? If so, can they fly upside down above the party? I'm not saying you should try this, unless you really want to TPK the group, but I was curious.

Also, consider throwing a high level Spectator at them instead. It generally gets the point of "You can't go around killing everything you see" without likely slaughtering the group. Nothing says quit being a punk like having a beholder disintegrate your magic items, then teleport away.

 

[pallandrome]

The CR calculator is really no more than a vague judge of how difficult an encounter will actually be. You must consider PC temperment, Player smarts, how heavily the set up will favor one side or the other, and how visciously the villain is going to fight.

 

[Venator]

A beholder is a beast at CR 13, but its very easy to play them poorly.

 

[Nail]

I'm assuming you can't really gauge these things on CR alone since people seem to think a Beholder is a TPK even though my CR calculator says otherwise.

Your CR calculator should say "Overpowering (EL 5+ higher than party level)".

The beholder is a CR 13, and your PCs (you said) are ECL 8.

You certainly *can* gauge these things on CR!

 

[Oryan77]

Your CR calculator should say "Overpowering (EL 5+ higher than party level)".

The beholder is a CR 13, and your PCs (you said) are ECL 8.

You certainly *can* gauge these things on CR!

The CR calculator I use says it's "Very Challenging". From my experience with this party & using this CR calculator, I don't need to start worrying about PC death unless the calculator says "Deadly". There may be 1 or 2 PC's that go unconcious in a Very Challenging encounter, but no deaths.

I understand certain circumstances raise or lower a CR...so I'm assuming a Beholder is one of them

 

[moritheil]

Okay, first off . . . when I run beholders, they don't follow the MM script, because I think it stinks. I lean heavily towards bringing the save-or-die rays to bear early on - all on the same person if at all possible. Also, I tend to assume beholders are tactical geniuses because of their absurdly high int scores. Thus, it's possible that my beholder encounters are a little more deadly than the norm.

So people are suggesting not running a combat with the Beholder.

I'm not really suggesting that you not do it; I'm agreeing with Frank's assessment that people will die if the beholder starts out with the upper hand. Think about it this way - 2 mages with fly spells up would TPK the party if they ambushed it, and a properly played beholder can be almost as good as 2 mages in terms of offense.

I'm assuming you can't really gauge these things on CR alone since people seem to think a Beholder is a TPK even though my CR calculator says otherwise . . . From my experience with this party & using this CR calculator, I don't need to start worrying about PC death unless the calculator says "Deadly".

I admire your (potentially misplaced) trust in that CR calculator. Are you sure that a 13th level mage, druid, or cleric wouldn't TPK your party if they started out with the upper hand? Can you confidently say that two 11th-level mages with sudden maximize wouldn't kill or knock out at least half the party in one round if they won initiative?

IMHO the beholder is best compared to a mage, or a pair of mages, optimized for dishing out damage.

 

[Oryan77]

Can you confidently say that two 11th-level mages with sudden maximize wouldn't kill or knock out at least half the party in one round if they won initiative?

Maybe. I'm a storyteller DM and an average combat oriented DM. I don't focus so much on how to kill the PCs the best way possible....I just run fun combats. I barely even use metamagic feats, so my two 11th lvl mages might not kill half of the party in one round since half the group are wargamers and I'm not. I've used the calculator for 3 years to gauge my encounters. It's not 100% accurate, but it's done it's job (gives me an estimate).

I've run CR 13 NPCs before and it wasn't too bad. From what people are saying, Beholders sound like they aren't "average" CR 13 encounters...or they're just easy to play as tough. That's good to know.

 

[moritheil]

Maybe. I'm a storyteller DM and an average combat oriented DM.

The one doesn't have anything to do with the other, but I get what you're saying. FWIW, the DM being combat competent actually encourages RP - most groups are much more receptive to RP if they learn that the DM is a complete terror when provoked by repetitive whining for fights.

I barely even use metamagic feats

I'm curious - what do you do with NPC caster feat slots, then? As far as I can tell, nothing else comes close in terms of absolutely needed feats for a caster (well, Natural Spell for druids, but that's unique.)

I've run CR 13 NPCs before and it wasn't too bad. From what people are saying, Beholders sound like they aren't "average" CR 13 encounters...or they're just easy to play as tough. That's good to know.

The thing is, as you alluded, encounters for the same CR really aren't the same at all. A large part of that is how intelligently you play them, and (as others have pointed out) how intelligently the players react. I agree that an int 6 giant shouldn't be great at taking advantage of small details, but sometimes creatures are intelligent, and the way to make that really count for something is to make them tactically savvy.

There's also how well you build them, but you don't strike me as the sort of DM to tweak all of his or her monsters to make them not pushovers in a fight of their EL, so I'll hold off on that.

I'm glad you're sharing this, though - it reinforces my belief that monsters flat-out suck when used as the book dictates and built as the book assigns feats.

 

[Oryan77]

The one doesn't have anything to do with the other, but I get what you're saying. FWIW, the DM being combat competent actually encourages RP - most groups are much more receptive to RP if they learn that the DM is a complete terror when provoked by repetitive whining for fights.

I've always thought the opposite. When I have had 'player vs DM' gamers in my group, they think I'm building encounters as tough as I can simply to do TPKs. So those players spend hours upon hours tweaking PC's between each session to make them as powergamey as they can. None of those players were ever solid roleplayers. The more I focus on combat the less the players roleplay...that's what I've experienced anyway.

I'm curious - what do you do with NPC caster feat slots, then? As far as I can tell, nothing else comes close in terms of absolutely needed feats for a caster (well, Natural Spell for druids, but that's unique.)

Well, I see this thread turning into a "prove how the OP isn't as good as a DM as me" type of thread. This always happens when a DM asks for advice. I'd rather not go into detail about my NPC builds other than to remind people that I'm not a wargamer so I don't spend a lot of time optimizing NPCs to be killing machines. I build something that provides for a fun session and that's all. If it's a more important NPC, I'll put more work into it, but I'm still far from being an optimizer. But if you need a really interesting NPC for players to roleplay with...I'm your man

Plus, when it comes to feats, I forget to use an NPCs feat half the time anyway. So a poor feat selection doesn't bother me much

There's also how well you build them, but you don't strike me as the sort of DM to tweak all of his or her monsters to make them not pushovers in a fight of their EL, so I'll hold off on that.

Yeah man, I guess a CR 13 NPC for me would be more like a CR 11 NPC for you. I just don't tweak him up like others might. I'm too busy coming up with adventure ideas and personalized side adventures for each PC than worrying about powergaming NPCs.

I just wanted to see how a Beholder should be run in a combat so I know I'm not playing him retarded. I got some good ideas and it's even made me reconsider using the encounter as a combat encounter.

So how many Gauths should I use instead?

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Plus, when it comes to feats, I forget to use an NPCs feat half the time anyway. So a poor feat selection doesn't bother me much

Better in that case to have less-optimal feats that you won't forget to use, maybe? For a caster, in order (levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12): Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude, Improved Toughness, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will. Throw in Skill Focus (concentration) for a human caster. Just plug them into the stat block and you never have to worry about using them.

So how many Gauths should I use instead?

Use 4 advanced to 10 HD each. That would be a CR 11 encounter, and they'd have more staying power and more difficult eye rays than a standard gauth. Use too few, and it's too easy. Use too many, and it takes you forever to resolve their actions.

HP would go up to about 75 each.
Put the ability point increase for 8 HD to Charisma
Pick Weapon Focus (eye ray) for the feat at 9 HD
AC stays the same
Main skills increase by 4 each
Eye ray attack goes up to +10 (+7 base, +2 Dex, +1 WF); eye ray DCs go up to 17
Stunning gaze DC goes up to 17
Saves go up to Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +11