Using beyond the wall's magic system in 5e

[CapnZapp]

So I'm reading over Beyond The Wall, and I'm quickly falling in love with the magic system.

For the uninitiated, a mage has access to 3 types of magic.

Cantrips - mostly minor magics. These require an ability check or they can backfire.
Spells - mostly equivalent to 5e 1st and 2nd level spells. There are no levels to these. You can merely cast a number of spells per day equal to your level.
Rituals - these are more powrful magics that require exotic material components and takes an hour per level of the ritual to cast. These are more equivalent to 3rd level and beyond.

Rituals are wheee it gets really interesting. They have a range of magic such as raising undead, resurrection and causing a common shared dream in a community, but these take nearly a full day to cast. I love this as a mechanism. It allows mages to be powerful without the idea that they can cast wish for breakfast each morning.

How could this be implemented in 5e, if you were to do so?

First question: are you prepared to give up D&Ds idea that everybody should be (roughly) equally capable to contribute in combat?

If you are, easy - just use this on top of the existing full caster chassi.

If you aren't, also easy, accept that Wizard becomes a NPC class and give this to half casters like Rangers and Paladins (and maybe even one thirds casters like Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters).

 

[CubicsRube]

[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] - its a hard one.

Definitely this makes casters pess powerful in combat. But allowing for higher level spells available as rituals and tjeoretically castable with as many hours as there are in a day, this provides more utility, especially as you can cast any spell you know.

In addition, if the lower level spells scaled on your caster level as opposed to spell level, these spells would become more powerful. Burning hands and chromatic orb could become quite powerful. In an earlier example i mentioned scorching elray, but instead at 1d6 per caster level (3 bolts). A 5th level caster could then cast 5 rounds of 3 x 5d6 rays of fire. Pretty powerful stuff. A 10th level would have 3 x 10d6 rays. I haven't done the math on it, but if you scaled 1st and 2nd damage spells this way, i think it works out somewhere in the middle.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I would say it fits the common fantasy scenario where the party has to hold off something while the caster completes The Big Spell*. The only downside is that the caster is basically doing the same thing for X number of rounds. If I were to do this, I would make the rituals something like 4e skill challenges (ritual succeeds if you complete Y challenges, fail 2 in a row and you get sucked into the Abyss). That way the caster is "doing something" with a chance of failure each round.

* I am also a little concerned that it would formalize the "the rest of the party is just the wizard's bodyguard" idea too much.

 

[TwoSix]

Link to Beyond the Wall, which really is a fantastic game. I've done 4 one shots of it, and I've had players tell me after the game that they liked it enough to want to make a campaign of it.

 

[Laurefindel]

Oooooh, another Jon Hodgson illustrated game! Looks great!

I don't know more of the game than what I've read in reviews, but I think it would transfer to 5e best if you keep it to low levels. I'd say a E5 or E6 type of game, whereas characters gain advanced features as rewards thereafter. That may be a lower power-level than the expected 5e game or even BtW game, but that's where current " balance" would be most conserved IMO ( and therefore the least adaptation required).

'findel

 

[Satyrn]

So I'm reading over Beyond The Wall, and I'm quickly falling in love with the magic system.

For the uninitiated, a mage has access to 3 types of magic.

Cantrips - mostly minor magics. These require an ability check or they can backfire.
Spells - mostly equivalent to 5e 1st and 2nd level spells. There are no levels to these. You can merely cast a number of spells per day equal to your level.
Rituals - these are more powrful magics that require exotic material components and takes an hour per level of the ritual to cast. These are more equivalent to 3rd level and beyond.

Rituals are wheee it gets really interesting. They have a range of magic such as raising undead, resurrection and causing a common shared dream in a community, but these take nearly a full day to cast. I love this as a mechanism. It allows mages to be powerful without the idea that they can cast wish for breakfast each morning.

How could this be implemented in 5e, if you were to do so?

I think I'd leave everything how it is in 5e, with one change: All spells of 3rd level and above become ritual-only spells with a casting time of 1 hour/level. Yes, fireball is included (and probably useless).

Now, this doesn't make for a perfect translation (there's still no cantrip check, for example, and there are still spell levels), but because it's a minimum amount of change - all it's actually doing is limiting casters to second level spells - it's easy to implement

It'll be up to the players to decide which level 3+ spells are actually worth bothering with, too, so that'd be less work for me. And if they don't want to bother with rituals, they can load up on a wide variety of 1st/2nd level spells and upcast them all day long with their high level slots.

 

[Tony Vargas]

i explained how these were all different in the rest of the post. Cantrips have a chance to fail, and rituals take hours to cast.

If that's the extent of the differences it shouldn't be too hard....

Rituals are the most interesting balancing mechanism for me. If in 5e most 3rd level spells and above could not be instantly cast but instead took the better part of a day, you'd drastically change the power level of a mage.

It'd make their contributions in combat less varied and critical, but a mage tossing cantrips is contributing more in combat than a non-proficient 10-CHA fighter in a group diplomacy check.

Yes they can make a person fly, but they need 3 uninterrupted hours to do it. They can create a permanent wall of stone, but itll take the better part of a day.

It'd take a lot of reworking of individual spells but it might be doable.

That actually sounds pretty reasonable. It'll shift the pace of the game some - every ritual will be a chance for a short rest, for instance - but, overall, it'll make magic less fungible and more impactful when it can be brought to bear, precisely because it can't be used easily.

 

[jgsugden]

It essentially does exist.

All you need to do are switch up the casting times on some spells, adjust the spell lists (to avoid offensive spells) and add a few new spells to the game. Mechanically speaking, this is very close to the existing system.

Wizards essentially get a number of slots equal to their level. They're not all for 1st or second level spells, but the different between a 5th level and 1st level spell in 5E is not as great as people make it out to be. What is the difference between Tasha's and Hold Monster? Between Charm Person and Dominate Person? For some uses, there are no real differences, although for other uses there is a substantial difference.

There is a ritual system in 5E that meets your needs, but it just doesn't have those higher level powerful rituals you crave, like the nightmare for an entire village or raising an undead army. Just add those spells to the game.

If a spell is too strong for you to allow it to be cast as one action, either change the casting time and make it a ritual, or remove it from the spell list. Then add a few spells to fill gaps that are high level rituals. Done.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I could go on but I think you have the idea. There were so many useful rituals that basically just took coin, but once you were high enough level the coin was so minimal that these were free magic.

That's entirely a matter of perspective. A hundred gold is still a hundred gold, even if you have a hundred thousand. There is more use for money than just rituals and magic items, and a hundred gold can do a lot of good in the world.

There's a big difference between rituals that are limited by casting time and rituals that are limited by material costs. It's something that every world-builder needs to take into consideration when deciding how the world works.

 

[Blue]

That's entirely a matter of perspective. A hundred gold is still a hundred gold, even if you have a hundred thousand. There is more use for money than just rituals and magic items, and a hundred gold can do a lot of good in the world.

There's a big difference between rituals that are limited by casting time and rituals that are limited by material costs. It's something that every world-builder needs to take into consideration when deciding how the world works.

I'll restate it a different way - the game assumes you'll be spending money on consumables, it's built into the economy. If they are potions or ritual components it doesn't care.

And items are part of character advancement, and their costs go up fivefold every five levels - the amounts you pay for low level rituals are literal pocket change compared to paragon level characters.