Using beyond the wall's magic system in 5e

[CubicsRube]

On a game level, it's not so much the material costs but the casting time that has a significant impact.

If i want to identify an object, i need downtime to do it. If i want to compel someone a la geas, i may need to set up a secluded environment where i wont be disturbed.

Either way, it puts most spells effectively in 2 categories. Ones that you can use in combat, and those that cannot. Making those that cannot be used in combat the more powerful spells creates an interesting dynamic. Maybe you can planar bind a demon, but you have to find a way to keep it occupied first.

 

[77IM]

I'm confused why you would want to nerf spellcasters this hard.

I love the idea of Beyond the Wall but wouldn't it work just as well with the normal D&D spellcasting rules?

 

[Yaarel]

If it is necessary to remove the highest level spells, then instead only allow semi-casters: ranger, paladin, eldritch knight, or arcane trickster. An elemental monk might even make sense if able to cast rituals.

 

[Irda Ranger]

It's very evocative, but it also nerfs casters pretty hard relative to the other classes. You could limit all PCs to 5th level or so I guess, but otherwise you'd need to increase the power of casters in other ways so they stay balanced with Fighters and Rogues.

My suggestion would be to--

1. Increase the power of cantrips a little, but require an Arcana check each time. Convert the cantrips that require an attack roll to automatically hit and doing full/half damage on Save. Some sort of fumble rule on a 1.

2. Change the spell slot mechanic to "X slots per day" or "Y slots per Short Rest", and they're always at the highest level you can cast. But you can only use them to cast 1st-2nd or 3rd level spells (Yes, 3rd. D&D Wizards really should have Fireball). Make sure that all the spells scale with level well.

3. Specify that all spells of 4th level and higher are Ritual spells and Ritual only (unless you have a magic item, like Wand of Lightning) and require 1 hour per spell level.

4. Make scrolls a little easier to make, so PCs can invest for quick-spellcasting when they really need it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm confused why you would want to nerf spellcasters this hard.

Presumably because it fits the way magic is portrayed in the setting. D&D magic doesn't fit magic in /any/ setting (except, tautologically, settings built around D&D, of course) - not even the Dying Earth that inspired the system.

There's really plenty of room to heap restrictions on magic and have casters balanced with the few non-caster options. Not just because they're starting out imbalanced, either. 5e spotlight-balanced classes, it's not the kind of strict mechanical balance you could get by carefully 'nerfing' casters. Spotlight balance is very loose, and when restricting magic, it tends to take care of itself: as magic becomes rarer and harder to use in the setting, it just becomes that much more spotlight-grabbing for PCs that manage to use it.

It's very evocative, but it also nerfs casters pretty hard relative to the other classes.

In 5e, all classes use at least some spells.
I guess the Barbarian doesn't get nerfed, since it's spell use is already limited to a few rituals.

 

[Irda Ranger]

In 5e, all classes use at least some spells.
I guess the Barbarian doesn't get nerfed, since it's spell use is already limited to a few rituals.

Uh... some classes are a little more dependent on their spellcasting ability to be effective, no? A Ranger limited to 1st and 2nd level spells isn't nearly as handicapped as a wizard limited to 1st and 2nd level spells.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Actually, you know what? The easiest way to implement Beyond The Wall, with the fewest changes to the 5E system, would be-

1. Allow all spellcasters to cast Prestidigitation, Druidcraft, etc. with an Arcana/Nature/Religion check.
2. Cap advancement in any spellcaster class to the level prior to getting 3rd level spells.
3. Allow that PCs with Ritual Caster have access to ritual spells based on character level, not class level.
4. Specify that all spells of 3rd level and above are Rituals with 1 hour/level casting time.

 

[77IM]

Presumably because it fits the way magic is portrayed in the setting.
...
5e spotlight-balanced classes, it's not the kind of strict mechanical balance you could get by carefully 'nerfing' casters. Spotlight balance is very loose, and when restricting magic, it tends to take care of itself: as magic becomes rarer and harder to use in the setting, it just becomes that much more spotlight-grabbing for PCs that manage to use it.

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think it will quite works out that way in D&D. The combat system isn't going to be very kind to a wizard or sorcerer who can only spit out cantrips and upleveled 1st- and 2nd-level spells, and the non-combat system is going to be all kinds of weird to ritual casters (for example, why spend 3 hours casting fly when you could just climb over whatever obstacle is in your path?).

If I were doing this, instead of restricting spells by level, I'd restrict spells by effect. Blatant combat spells like damage-dealers and certain buffs would remain castable with slots. But many special-effect spells could be made into rituals, even at low levels, without affecting combat balance. I think that's going to be a lot more fun and interesting because it emphasizes the effect of magic on the world and on your adventure. If you can cast shatter (2nd level) it's not all that world-changing to cast fireball (3rd level). But being able to cast invisibility (2nd level) or even charm person (1st level) has tons of implications on the setting and how people in it behave.

 

[77IM]

Regarding timing: I once had a house-rule ritual system in another game where you could cast the ritual and then not activate its effects until later. Like, you spend 2 hours preparing invisibility and then the target can activate the invisibility later. But you could only "hold" one ritual effect at a time, so you couldn't just load up on buffs, and I think there was a time limit too (like 24 hours or something). This makes it more feasible why someone might cast fireball or fly as a ritual. It also brings back a touch of that Vancian spell-preparation feeling.

 

[Satyrn]

2. Cap advancement in any spellcaster class to the level prior to getting 3rd level spells.

I don't think that's needed. It might be advisable for a player not to advance past that point, but I'd want to see how they play with access to high level slots for upcasting their 1st and 2nd level spells.