Using Combat Manouvers... Defensively?

[T-Bone JiuJitsu]

Toying with the idea that if spellcasters can cast "defensively" to avoid an AoO, why can't combatants use special manouvers like Trip, Sunder, or Bull Rush "defensively" to avoid the AoO (and without spending a Feat).

How about:

Trip Defensively, you perform a Trip manouver as normal except you provoke no AoO but are at -4 to the check.

Defensive Bull Rush, you perform Bull Rush manouver as normal except you are at a -4 on your opposed checks and provoke no AoO.

Etc....


What do you think?

 

[drdevoid]

Neat idea! I'm not sure about the numbers involved. It'd be totally dependent upon playtesting, I'd think.

In fact, your example refers to "casting defensively", but makes me think more of "fighting defensively." After all, one can "Aid Another" and "Fight Defensively."

So here's my thought process:

You might want to remove the "No AoO" clause and grant something similar to the mobility feat (effectively reversing the numbers for "fighting defensively".)

For example:

Regdar, a 4th level fighter, Defensively Bull Rushes a halfling guard with a longspear fearful that his training may cause substantial damage before he's able to get inside his guard.

His AC is +4 for the 2 potential AoOs (assuming the guard has combat reflexes and an Dexterity of 12 or more), but he takes a -2 on the opposed strength check to bull rush.

That way "Defensively" using an alternative attack does not make a character a full size category smaller (making it much harder to perform straight opposed strength checks) but is still totally outclassed by those with the feat. Disarms, Grapples and Sunders may be totally different though; BAB is the great equalizer.

As an extra (similar to having the 5 ranks in tumble when "fighting defensively" or using "Full Defense", or in addition to it), the attacker could be granted an additional bonus for having the Power Attack or Combat Expertise feats (depending upon the action.)

 

[skippy_the_witch]

Try using the BOOK OF IRON MIGHT from Malhavoc Press. This book deconstructs the original manuevers and then from this, creates an easy to use process to create your own manuevers. I don't have the book in front of me, or I would write up what they would say about a Defensive Trip, etc.

skippy
GM of The Cursed Earth Campaign

 

[T-Bone JiuJitsu]

Try using the BOOK OF IRON MIGHT from Malhavoc Press. This book deconstructs the original manuevers and then from this, creates an easy to use process to create your own manuevers. I don't have the book in front of me, or I would write up what they would say about a Defensive Trip, etc.

skippy
GM of The Cursed Earth Campaign

Ah, I have not seen that book on the shelves just yet. Will probably pick it up. My inspiration for this is the lowly orc or gnoll trying to do SOMETHING to the fighter they have surrounded. I tried to disarm, but drew an AoO which killed the gnoll before he got to the opposed roll. I'm trying to figure out what an appropriate penalty would be to balance removing the AoO.

 

[drdevoid]

I'm still waiting for the Print version of BoIM from Amazon myself.

So I take it "+4 AC against AoO, -2 to appropriate check" route just isn't going to work for you?

Well the by the book method is to have the grunts gang up on the fighter then let one provoke an AoO prematurely as a feint (not an actual feint action, just something that provokes).

If the fighter takes the bait, then let the remaining grunts aid a grapple, and start the grapple. That would be upto +12 on the check assuming they can make their aid checks.

If the fighter doesn't have combat reflexes he's going to get grappled- even by gnomes unless he's really tricked out for grappling.

Tricky, sure. Meanspirited, perhaps. Worth it- well, clearly that's up to you. I'd say decent guards would know of such tactics. Really, it'd be up to the PC not to fall for it.

 

[Narfellus]

Can someone who does have the electronic version of BoIM give me some examples of the feats? I might want to pick that up too when the print version comes out, if it sounds interesting enough.