Using Detect Evil AKA Another Paladin Thread!

[Olaf the Stout]

One can be evil without doing evil. How does one do that?

joe b.

Actually Joe I was referring to the fact that even if a person is evil, the paladin would still have to prove that they have done something wrong in order to punish him. I can't see too many cities where paladins can go around attack people based on the fact that they detected as evil.

Who knows, the person may have already been punished for their evil deed. If they have they wouldn't necessarily revert to a good alignment until they did something evil again. Chances are they are probably planning to do the same thing again, just not get caught this time! And even if they are that still doesn't mean that a paladin can attack or arrest him for it, he still needs proof, at least in most societies.

And as people have already stated, there are a number of ways to be considered evil without actually committing an evil deed themselves.

Olaf the Stout

P.S. Joe, when is the trade book that you are working on coming out?

 

[Conaill]

In case anyone is interested, one of the reasons that I asked about this was because I wanted to know if there was a way within the RAW that I could stop a paladin from detecting evil on every single person that he meets.

Well - how do you see the distribution of alignments among the human population in your world? Some people might say Good, Neutral and Evil are distributed about 1/3 each, so your ship with 30 crew members may very well have 10 Evil ones... Others might say that Evil should only be assigned for truly heinous acts - in which case most of the population (including the PCs) is probably Neutral.

 

[Voadam]

So, it looks like Detect Evil is a very badly named spell. Who knew paladins have been lying to people for years.

At least now it has firm categories that you either definitely qualify for or don't so you can know the range of things that a positive detection could mean. In prior editions when detect evil acted as detect evil intentions it was a real ambiguous mess with good people who had bad days detecting as evil.

 

[I'm A Banana]

No, there's no way to stop him from detecting evil on everyone he meets unless he meets evil people that he can't really do anything about and wastes his time like that. It's not displaying WISDOM, when that happens.

IMC, there's no way that a paladin could do anything about every evil they encounter. But certainly, they can keep an eye out and be suspicious of 10 jerks on a ship.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I'm reminded of the scene in Unbreakable where he goes looking for a wrong to right... He "detects" evil of various sorts, but holds off until he finds one he can actually investigate and do something about. He doesn't follow the rapist or the drive-by racist into a corner and beat the hell out of them no matter how viscerally satisfying it might be.

My point is among a shipfull of folks, there is very likely a good amount of evil thats been done in thought and deed. As others have pointed out, allignment doesn't mean they acted overtly, or that their overt acts haven't already been punished. And it doesn't mean they have anything against the PCs. So while it makes them worth keeping an eye on, it doesn't make them enemies.

I guess my vote would be with those who say "let him detect things that aren't important" so that he will lso invest in sense motive, or work with the sneaky types to keep an eye out.

For the question of detecting evil, I think a "hunch" level sense motive sucess should detect that a person is using some form of divination magic. I envision a certain unfocused look to the eyes as they perceive that which is unseen....

 

[LostSoul]

I don't have a problem with him using his ability, and there are ways around it for a person wanting to hide the fact that they are evil, but I could see it becoming a problem in the future, more so in slowing the game down and continually putting the spotlight on the paladin than anything else.

Maybe you could play it as though the Paladin is able to detect anyone within the range automatically, since that's what he's doing all the time. Just brush past it and use it to establish the feel of a new town or tavern or place like that.

DM: "You sense a lot of evil people here - none powerful, but still evil."
Paladin: "This truly is a hive of scum and villany. Come, we must be cautious."

NPCs who are able can hide their alignment, as will NPCs who are aware of the Paladin's ability.

I'd also let the Paladin do his scan quicker than the rules might permit, so that you don't get into "the DM screwed me" sort of things. As a DM, one might think it would be neat to have an Evil guy run through the range too fast for the Paladin to scan him, so the Paladin thereafter considers him non-evil. And then when you tell him, oh yeah, he's evil, the player will say, "What?" Not good.

As for some sort of insight as to what might happen should my paladin detect someone as evil, last session the party fought a malenti (a type of sahaugin or sea devil). After defeating the creature the paladin and cleric stabilised it and then brought it back onto the ship where the paladin tried to get it to change its evil ways and see the light of good (using rules from the Book of Exalted Deeds). The paladin and cleric spent 4 days trying to change the malenti before the party reached port. Currently they have the creature wrapped up in a bolt of cloth and plan to continue their attempts to get it to change its ways!

That is cool!

 

[Crothian]

No, just a very badly designed spell. There is a significant difference.

After thinking it over I get what they are doing, it would just make it easier and make sense if the writers actually explained how some of this stuff works. Man, I can't wait for 4th edition......

 

[Thotas]

Oh, okay then ... yeah, the thing to do is a little jujitsu on him. The problem is that he's wasting everyone's game time. So underline that it's a waste of his time, too. 1e had a chart for rolling random alignment ... it used a d10, and every alignment was assigned a pip, with "True Neutral" getting the extra one. So 30% of a random group is likely to be evil.

And while I think that in the RAW there's no overt sign the ability is being used, the 18 seconds of intense concentration is going to once in a while look to someone like extreme rudeness (ie, staring) at the very least.

Create a couple of embarrassing social situations based on his over-use of the ability, go with the 30%, and he'll reign it in to something more reasonable.

 

[Glyfair]

One can be evil without doing evil. How does one do that?

Keith Baker had an example with this in regards to some question or another about paladins detecting evil (I thought it might have been in a Dragonshard, but I don't see it).

IIRC, it went something like: A paladin walks into a bar and detects evil. The bartender isn't a very nice person. He thinks about killing his wife, but knows that he won't get away with doing it. Since getting caught isn't on his agenda, he doesn't actually do it. However, he thinks about it often. Indeed, someday he might do it, if he thinks he can do it without getting caught. So, he detects as evil.

Lots of people are in this situation. Their general beliefs are enough to make them evil, but they actually haven't done anything (or at least anything significant) expressing those beliefs. You can't go around killing everyone whose moral basis is evil, just because of their beliefs (well, you could, but there would be major consequences).

 

[Glyfair]

If your god is evil, but you are not;l again you won't detect as evil. .

Actually, you will if you are a cleric (the Aura ability). So, a Lawful Neutral cleric of Wee Jas will detect as evil.

This is an important point in Eberron, since there are no alignment restrictions on worshipping a deity. You can be a lawful evil cleric worshipping a chaotic good deity (and would detect as lawful, evil, chaotic and good). This helps with one of Eberron's themes of alignments not being as easy to guess, without breaking the RAW.

(Of course, now I notice a dozen people hit on this point ).