Using Heal to find out how someone died.

[icedrake]

I don't think a person should be able to make repeative attempts on a Heal check to find out how someone died. It should also take a significantly long time at the scene of the crime because without it, there's less context for the crime. Yes, the player could carry the body away to another locaction to spend time with the body, but there's only so much information they can gleam after repeative attempts, ie taking 20. I would allow them to take 20 if they spend something like 5 hours looking at the body and they will lose out on whatever the rest of the party wants to do while they examine the corpse.

 

[DarkKestral]

I would combine the 1d6 hours thing with HIGH DCs. Like, 30 minimum for rare death reasons, and going up to 50+ for rare spell-related deaths (like, 8th-9th level spells of unusual origin) On average, if the body's fresh, you'll note if it's been stabbed, and possibly a few other very obvious things with lower DCs of 5-10, most common poisons with DCs of 20-30, and spell effects with 5-50+, depending on rarity/levels of likely trace. Magic Missile or Fireball are likely to have easy-to-note effects, while Finger of Death might be really difficult. For a skeleton, it might be DC 20 with a 1d6 hour autopsy to determine death by falling damage. You'll get a retry, unless you severely mangle the skeleton in the process. However, a "death by spell X" will probably require a DC 30-50+ spellcraft check, and a use of detect magic/arcane sight to pinpoint an exact cause of death, and won't get a retry if the spellcraft check is failed.

You also don't necessarily get an 'automatic success' as some might get it if I ran things. You'll simply know "You realize you don't have a CLUE. It's obviously some exotic poison, but the exact type eludes you." Whereas a successful check might get you "it's a poison". A fumble or failed check will earn you something like "He died from exhaustion." which is at least partly wrong.

 

[Storyteller01]

Tracking has modifiers for time between the trail being made and the attempt to track. Use similar modifiers, taking into account decomposition and environment.

Add +1 to the DC per week from the victims death for sterile environs (winter snow, desert, uninhabited dungeon, etc), +1 per 24 hours for standard environs (predators munching on the body in the forest, body is sitting in a village hut exposed to rats, etc), and a +1 per hour for extreme environs (body floating on or under water, decomposition in extreme humidity, body disposed of with acid, etc). You can set the DC as easily (5 to notice the crushed skull) or as hard (35 to find trace elements of the near unidentifiable toxin) as you like and add time to the equation.

Example: Traver finds a body that has been decomposing in the forest for two weeks. Having died from a blow to the head, the DM gives a DC of 5 to discover the cause of death. Given the time, the DC becomes 19 (+14 for the scavengers widening the hole in the head to get at the soft chewy brain, as well as feeding on other body parts). If the victim was poisoned, you're looking at a possible DC of 34 (arbitrary DM call of 20 to discover the poison, plus the +14 for the 2 week wait). Exotic methods or spells may have higher DCs (although I'm sure a fireball will leave more than a few traces ).

Those with Track could gain a co-operation/synergy bonus (the ranger detective strikes again!!)

Even if they take 20 (which is completely feasible, given how many tests are run on one body), time and exotic methods may still stump the specialist. You can even adjust the DC for differing environs (the body spent a month on ice, then two days in a warehouse. The modifier is a +6, but you may need to counter a disguise check to determine time of death).

Besides, I thought you couldn't take 20 only if there were a serious consequence for a failed or fumbled roll?


My apologies if this seems to ramble or seems scattered. I'm running on 48 hours without sleep.

 

[Menexenus]

Thanks to all those who provided suggestions. They have all been quite helpful. Here's what I'm thinking of going with now. Please feel free to criticize and/or suggest changes.

First of all, if the cause of death is obvious (like a crushed skull), then no Heal check need be made at all.

If you do not touch the dead body, then you can do a Heal check to examine a dead body in one round. Or you can spend 2 minutes looking and Take 20. However, this type of investigation will only yield limited results. Only wounds visible from the angle that the PCs are looking can be detected (DC varies from 0 to 20 depending on size of wound). The type of wound (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) can also be detected (DC 10). And the ballpark time of death can be estimated, within plus or minus 100% of the actual time since the person died (DC 15 - better success produces greater accuracy). If a poison with obvious tell-tale signs was used (like a poison that discolors the skin), the fact the person was suffering the effects of poison might also be determined by this kind of check (DC variable based on obviousness of signs and corpse's state of decay). A separate knowledge/alchemy check would have to be made to determine which poison causes these tell-tale signs.

If you are willing to touch the body (e.g. turn it over, take off its clothes, etc.), you can potentially get more details, but if the Healing check fails, there is a -1 penalty to subsequent checks (because each time the body is disturbed, some evidence is being obscured or lost). This makes Taking 20 impossible, but it doesn't restrict retries. Merely turning the body over and looking at it could be done in one round. Taking off the body's clothes would take 5 minutes (assuming they are not just being ripped off, in which case it would only take 1 minute). Not only would this type of investigation reveal wounds that might otherwise have been missed, but it could also determine the angle at which wounds were received to determine whether the attacker was smaller or larger than the deceased (DC 10-25, depending on the magnitude of the size difference).

Performing detailed autopsies (i.e. removing and examining internal organs) would require the Investigate feat and at least 1 rank of Knowledge (forensics) or 5 ranks of Knowledge (nature). 5 ranks in Knowledge (forensics) would produce a +2 synergy bonus. An autopsy would take a minimum of 10 minutes with a -8 penalty to the check, a half an hour with a -4 penalty, two hours with a -2 penalty, 4 hours without penalty, and an additional -2 penalty if done without the proper tools. This type of investigation could potentially yield the most detailed information, but retries would be very difficult (-10 penalty) because of the trauma caused to the body by a previous autopsy. (Again, this makes Taking 20 impossible.) Only a successful autopsy can *determinately* reveal the precise time and cause of death (without divination).

In the end, as FranktheDM pointed out (and several others have agreed), the DC of discovering specific pieces of information about the corpse will depend on a lot of factors that will be difficult to codify into rules and are perhaps best left as DM fiat. So perhaps this entire enterprise is moot. Still, I think my game will benefit from putting *some* basic limitations on the use of Heal checks.

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

I read this post and I am truly sorry but I must rant about something here. It doesn’t really help the post in any way (almost a hijack) so you don’t have to read it. The following quote bothers me.

“Well, no, I guess not. It just doesn't seem very "realistic" to me. It seems to me that, by allowing this use of the Heal skill, we are imposing our 20th century scientific worldview on a medieval-based fictional fantasy society. Because of our modern viewpoint, *we* (as players) know that there is evidence there to be found for those who are willing to do a detailed autopsy. I'm not sure that such an idea should/would occur to someone (like our characters) who live before the advent of modern medical science.”

Sadly this is a mistake that most people make and I have seen many movies and D&D games ruined by uninformed directors and GMs respectively.

There is a common belief among our “modern” society that Ancient and Medieval people were primitive screw heads who spent all their time searching for sea serpents and talking about how the world was flat. Almost no one realizes how smart and resourceful these people were. Our technology far outdoes theirs, but they were just as intelligent as we are, maybe even more so since they were able to figure out things (such as the circumference of the earth) without all our high technology.

Speaking of technology. I don’t like all these movies/books were people go back in time and use technology to impress everyone and make them think they are powerful wizards. If you flew a plane over a medieval city, or even some of the enlightened ancient people like the Greeks, nobody would be dumb enough to say “Look, a giant silver bird.” They would look up and say “Wow, its some sort of flying machine. There must be a man in there piloting the thing.” Then they would probably take extensive notes and do research on the thing that may lead to the plane being invented decades if not centuries ahead of time. After all, they did have a working blueprint for the steam engine 500 years before it was even invited.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Would not the feat "Track" tell you far more about the circumstances of death?

"There was... a mighty duel. It ranged all over. They were both masters..."
"Who won? How did it end?"

First of all, if the cause of death is obvious (like a crushed skull), then no Heal check need be made at all.

Of course, assumptions like this means you'll never learn that the skull was crushed post-mortem, and he was actually killed by a poison dart from a blowgun... like the one that guy hiding in the shadows over there is aiming at you...

-Hyp.

 

[Storyteller01]

Speaking of technology. I don’t like all these movies/books were people go back in time and use technology to impress everyone and make them think they are powerful wizards. If you flew a plane over a medieval city, or even some of the enlightened ancient people like the Greeks, nobody would be dumb enough to say “Look, a giant silver bird.” They would look up and say “Wow, its some sort of flying machine. There must be a man in there piloting the thing.” Then they would probably take extensive notes and do research on the thing that may lead to the plane being invented decades if not centuries ahead of time. After all, they did have a working blueprint for the steam engine 500 years before it was even invited.

Two rebuttals for this:

Societies exist today that DID believe jets flying overhead were something organic until the truth was explained to them (kind of hard to tell its a machine if you've never heard it, and when its travelling 400 mph at 1,000 ft).

There was a reason why C-130's blowing apart a grid square was called a 'puff' in Vietnam.


On the flip side, these same societies had knowledge that we didn't understand until it was explained. The equalized in the end.

 

[MarkB]

Jack's solution might work, but I'm not sure I can justify why there are no retries. After all, you would know whether you found the cause of death or not, and you don't "use up" the body when you do the Heal check/investigation. So it seems that retries should be allowed.

Using Heal in this manner is very similar to a Knowledge check - you examine the corpse, get all the information you can from it, then make an assessment based upon your knowledge of healing. That assessment may be right, wrong, or inconclusive, depending what you know.

As with Knowledge checks, it's reasonable to not allow re-tries until the character gains additional ranks in Heal.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I read this post and I am truly sorry but I must rant about something here.

Well, it's a rant, so I'm not going to debate with you too much. Everyone's allowed to vent.

However, I will say that I don't find the idea that historical peoples would see a jet plane as a giant silver bird preposterous in the slightest. Indeed, they look a lot like giant silver birds to me, and I know what airplanes are. I imagine that in a time before airplanes or submarines or cars or bicycles or anything that has a pilot, I would be highly likely to believe it to be what it very much looks like. A giant silver bird that flies really fast.


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Regarding the topic at hand, if there is very little medical knowledge in the world, then I'd allow a Heal check for rudimentary information, but nothing so complicated as a time of death, which requires study of the dead to develop a means of measuring.

In a world with more medical knowledge, I'd introduce a new skill: Knowledge (Anatomy).

This is in fact what I did in my most recent D&D campaign. The world was set in an early-Renaissance styled period, where heretics were making inroads into the medical sciences despite religious taboos. So PCs were informed that, with the proper background, they could take ranks in Knowledge (Anatomy) which would provide information regarding bodies, deaths, etc.

Heal allowed one to care for the injured and ill (with extremely high ranks allowing for rudimentary surgery). Knowledge (Anatomy) allowed for the drawing of conclusions based on physical evidence.

The new skill saw a great deal of use, as my campaign was focused on the return of magic to the world, and a growing number of supernatural events. The PCs were able to use Knowledge (Anatomy) to determine details regarding aberrant creatures, stitched undead, etc.

It also gave rise to a new kind of gear. I created a new "mundane magic item": the reference book. One of the PCs managed to get hold of a heretical text detailing a certain scholar's studies regarding the inner workings of the human body. Having it available to refer to while making a Knowledge (Anatomy) check gave her a +2 reference bonus to the check. However its bonus came at a price. The Church had decreed that possession of the book was a crime punishable by death.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Regarding the topic at hand, if there is very little medical knowledge in the world, then I'd allow a Heal check for rudimentary information, but nothing so complicated as a time of death, which requires study of the dead to develop a means of measuring.

In a world with more medical knowledge, I'd introduce a new skill: Knowledge (Anatomy).

Booo! Skill inflation only screws players. Why introduce a whole new incredibly specialized skill for something that could be covered just fine by the Heal skill?

Or in other words, please consider my disapproval of Knowledge (Anatomy) registered.