Using Hide in Combat

smetzger said:
Artoomis you contradicted yourself.

On the one hand you said you cannot hide if you 'line of site occurs' and on the other hand you quoted the sniping passage, which includes hiding when 'line of site occurs'.

The rules allow for someone to remain hidden although 'line of site occurs'. Their is just a situational adjustment for the DC.

I did not contradict myself and this has been already cleared up, I think, but just to be sure:

You cannot hide if you have no concealment. Period. If the orc moves around the boulder to where the monk has no concealment, the monk's not hidden any more.

Sniping represents popping out of hiding, shooting, and popping back in. If you are really, really good at it, you might be able to get a shot off unnoticed and stay hidden.

No contradiction.
 
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Li Shenron said:
It is different to hide in order to reach a spot where your opponent doesn't know you are there, and to hide in the sense of simply get out of line of sight (for spells and ranged attacks).


For the SECOND purpose, you don't make a hide check, you simply move behind some cover.

The D&D Hide skill is used for the FIRST purpose: you CANNOT hide if someone is watching you. Normally you make a hide check as part of a move to quickly move out of sight and hide yourself before the opponent sees you (although it is common to use a hide check also to KEEP yourself hidden if you had all your time to hide beforehand but you might be spotted later).

If someone had seen you clearly, such as the orc having been in battle with you, you can use hide to reach a place so that the orc doesn't know anymore where you had moved only (1) creating a diversion to hide (a bluff check) or (2) using a special ability such as Hide in Plain Sight to let you hide even when observed.

In your case, the Monk moves behind a boulder, but the orc doesn't need to make a spot check to know he's behind that boulder.

Don't be confused by this:



It does NOT mean that you can move behind the boulder and roll a hide check so that the orc doesn't know under which boulder you are. It means that, after getting out of sight you may hide under some OTHER cover or into a concealed area. For example if the boulder is very large and behind that there are other boulders (or foliage to give concealment) you can hide (if you still have time) so that the orc - once he gets past the boulder - may not find you anymore.

Great advice! Thank you!

I was trying to explain to my player why I think I handled the Hide skill wrong during last combat, but was having a hard time.

I think next time I see her, I will show her this thread.
 

Complete cover: No hide check is needed, though one is a good idea as cover has a way of being negated. As long as there is complete cover, you and the foe are unable to interact with line of sight or line of effect based rules. As your foe (or you or the cover) move, the cover may go from total cover to a lesser degree of cover or may be completely removed. If you are 'hiding' with complete cover behind a boulder and the enemy wizard disintegrates it, you are no longer hidden.

Partial cover or concealment: When you have cover (less than total) or concealment between you and your foe, you may make a hide check. If successful, the foe will not notice you. If that cover or concelament stops blocking the line of effect/view between you and the observer, your hiding ends. So, if you're hiding behind a rock and then leap out to attack a wandering kobold 10' away, you are no longer hiding when you reach the kobold. Of course, the kobold will probably be flat footed ...

You need to ask your DM whether an obstruction provides cover or concealment in questionable cases. If a rogue or monk slips behind some thin bushes, do they provide cover or concealment? That is up to the DM ... and may change depending upon why you're worried about the cover/concealment. I might treat some thin bushes as cover for purposes of a ray attack (disintegrate, ray of frost, etc ...), but as concealment for purposes of a physical weapon attack (arrows). For purposes of hiding, it is generally better to error on the side of concealment (for reasons explained below).

Let us say the monk is hiding behind a boulder that provides complete cover against an enemy fighter. That enemy fighter then walks past the boulder. At one point during his path, that fighter will go from complete cover to partial cover. At this point, you will begin to need to worry about the monk's hide skill. As the fighter continues, that partial cover will become no cover. Unless the monk has 'hide in plain sight' or camouflage abilities, he will be seen, regardless of a hide roll.

Look at your number keypad on your keyboard. It should be laid out like this:

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

Imagine 7, 4 and 5 are occupid by a large boulder. 8 is the location of a monk. An enemy fighter is walking along a path from 1 to 2 to 3 to 6 to 9. While in spaces 1 and 2, the fighter and monk each have complete cover. As he moves into area 3, there is no longer complete cover. There is line of effect between the monk and the fighter (upper right corner of squares 3 and 8 can be connected without crossing a barrier), so we now need to consider the hide rules. The DM may consider the cover to be sufficient to qualify for the varying degrees of cover rules, but likely not, so if the monk is hiding, he gets a hide check opposed by the fighter's spot to remain hidden.

Assuming the monk manages to make the hide check, the fighter then moves to square 6. The partial cover remains and the smae hide check is in effect. Area 6 is within the reach of the monk, so if he had a readied attack, he could make that readied attack, though the fighter would get an AC bonus for cover (+4).

The fighter then moves to space 9. The monk is threatening square 6, so as the fighter moves out of square 6 we must consider whether he provokes an AoO for moving out of a threatened square. The rules for cover state that you may not make an AoO against a foe with cover. The AoO is created for attacking a foe as they leave a threatened square, not for entering a threatened square. Accordingly, as he leaves the square, he still has cover from being in square 6, so he does provoke an AoO, but the cover rules do not let you take that AoO against the fighter.

After moving into square 9, there is no cover between the monk and the fighter. Unless the monk has a hide in plain sight ability, he is seen regardless of his hide role.

If the monk wants to stay hidden and make that AoO in a situation such as this, he needs to use concealment instead of cover to block the view. Concelament does not block AoOs like cover does. In most circumstances, the monk will need to consider his hide check earlier as the view through the concealment will often be possible earlier than if you have solid and complete cover.

As a final note: Some people point to word 'attempt' in the hide description ("You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.") and indicate that cover or concealment is needed only when hiding begins - when the attempt is made. This is a possible interpretation under the rules as written, but it is illogical in the presence of abilities like camoflage and hide in plain sight that would become somewhat redundant, making only a minor difference to a high level character (where these abilities are gained) as opposed to being powerful abilities for powerful PCs. 'Attempt' is more likely to be there to reference the fact that it is possible to fail the hide check.
 

jgsugden said:
Look at your number keypad on your keyboard. It should be laid out like this:

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3
(awesome example)

Wow. Nice work. This is exactly how Hide functions in D&D.

Well done!

To recap:

No concealment? No cover? No Hide in Plain Sight ability?
Then no hide for you. You need one of those three things in order to attempt the skill roll/be hiding.

Also, note that a new Hide is required each time you move. "A hide check is made as part of movement." Each time you move, you have to roll a new hide. And, of course, potential observers roll a new Spot.

-z
 

jgsugden said:
Look at your number keypad on your keyboard. It should be laid out like this:
7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3
....

Very well done. Now, if squares 7,4 and 5 are bushes rather than rock, they are concealment rather than cover.

So, the only changes are that when the fighter goes from square 6 to square 9 the monk can take the Attack of Opportunity. Are there others?

This is a great example. If only Skippy the sage could be as clear!

-Tatsu
 

Hmm... I have a hard time seeing how one can threaten an area or even perform an AoO while hiding.

If the fighter is that close (within arm's reach and AoO possible, because there is no cover), then he would spot the monk automatically and could stop moving before actually provoking the AoO.

Also, since the fighter knows, that the monk must be behind this boulder, he should have a considerable bonus (at least +4) to the Spot check.

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee said:
Hmm... I have a hard time seeing how one can threaten an area or even perform an AoO while hiding.

If the fighter is that close (within arm's reach and AoO possible, because there is no cover), then he would spot the monk automatically and could stop moving before actually provoking the AoO.

Also, since the fighter knows, that the monk must be behind this boulder, he should have a considerable bonus (at least +4) to the Spot check.

Bye
Thanee

No bonus. If the fighter knows the monk is behind that particular boulder, then he'd be pretty stupid to just walk around the boulder. He should take a more circuitous route so he can see behind the boulder before he must engage. It's kind of stupid to walk right into the fist you are sure is there, isn't it?
 

Thanee said:
Hmm... I have a hard time seeing how one can threaten an area or even perform an AoO while hiding.
Tell that to my wife. I constantly spring out at her from around a door as she passes.

Ahhhh .... the look of panic on a wife's face .... is there any better reason to be married?
Thanee said:
If the fighter is that close (within arm's reach and AoO possible, because there is no cover), then he would spot the monk automatically and could stop moving before actually provoking the AoO.

Also, since the fighter knows, that the monk must be behind this boulder, he should have a considerable bonus (at least +4) to the Spot check.

Bye
Thanee
I'd agree on a bonus for spot. I usually give a +5 bonus to spot checks when someone is focused on spotting what they are seeking. You can either be distracted (actively looking elsewhere with a -5 penalty),
normal (not searching, but not focused elsewhere) or focused (actively looking the correct location - antidistracted).
 

jgsugden said:
...I'd agree on a bonus for spot. I usually give a +5 bonus to spot checks when someone is focused on spotting what they are seeking. You can either be distracted (actively looking elsewhere with a -5 penalty),
normal (not searching, but not focused elsewhere) or focused (actively looking the correct location - antidistracted).

The problem with this approach is it tends to emasculate the Hide skill.

If two folks have the same skill bonus score for Hide and Spot, the odds of finding the hider should be 50/50. If not, you are talking away from the skill of the hider.

Bonuses under certain circumstances, sure, but actively looking for someone is precisely what you are avoiding with the hide skill - it's not really a special circumstance at all, it's just normal use of the Spot skill. The extra bonus for looking really hard comes from the fact that you can retry Spot as a move action.
 

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