Using intimidate to force an opponent to surrender

[Gregor]

Hey all,

I have question that may have come up before: Can a character use intimidate for force an opponent to surrender in combat?

As written in the SRD, it basically outlines two potential actions: changing someone's behaviour and demoralizing.

It positions the changing of behaviour aspect as something requiring 1 minute of conversation, and the combat usage (demoralizing) as requiring a standard action. However, the language isn't crystal clear to me (shocker!), so I'm not sure if you can do either action in combat via a standard action. On a related note, IF a character can force a surrender in combat, would that character need to threaten the opponent in melee in order to force a surrender?

I've looked through Enworld (via google searches) and the D&D 3.5 FAQ but have not seen too many discussions.

How have you handled this? Or, please tell me I'm a fool that cannot read and then set me straight.

Thanks.

 

[Dandu]

I've seen it done with a -10 penalty for rushing the action.

 

[ValhallaGH]

My games: I subscribe to the 4E guidelines for this question: If you succeed and they're "bloodied" then they'll surrender.

So, get them to 50% or fewer hp and then scare them into surrendering. Which means that BBEG's rarely surrender (that modified level check is huge, and immunity to fear is increasingly common), but mooks often do.


Technically: Surrendering would be a form of behavior change (not fight vs. fight). This requires 1 minute, or 10 combat rounds.
Much more practical is to Demoralize (-2 to saves), and then have the Wizard use Charm Monster (Will save).

Good luck.

 

[Zhar]

Hi,
It's mainly a RP disposal, mitigated with a good die. I will answer you in several days as I am about to test it: trying to intimidate a LE demon (some on their kins where previously slayed) with my CG Eldritch disciple (Eagle splendor + Divine Insight + Divine Presence ==> about +32 bonus for a total of +40 intimidate skill). With a good RP this can be a good way to change a combat without any sword but just words. I will not abuse the game with that sort of trick (add awful different bonus) as the DM and players would be disappointed, but from time to time it's pleasant. A demon could then be frightened to death by not considering words of an god's emissary.
just 2cp

 

[Gregor]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

Is it safe for me to assume that this is something being left up to a DM call?

 

[CuRoi]

Yes, the rules fail you here, heh. I think that is one of the best and wors tthings about 3e. They wanted a rule for everything practically which leads people too often believe that if a rule isn't shown, then it just can't be done. But yeah, it is completely up to your DM and the group. And yeah, it's absolutely within the rules. (The "Rules" being however you guys want to play the game, heh).

My only advice is if it is a RP based decision, don't try to hard to add rules to the outcome or try to codify it for the future. A lot of the time, I just use common sense as a DM. If the opponent is getting stomped, has intelligence, and feels it might need to flee, surrender or what not to survive, a well timed Intimidation can end things several rounds early. If the oponent has the upperhand or is a fanatical zealot ready to die for their cause, the Intimidate check (or maybe Bluff/Diplomacy check) is going to be harsh and likely unsucessful. The main reason I hesitate to put some sort of solid written mechanic to it is that hinging the outcome of all combats to a successful Intimidate (Bluff, Dilomacy, etc) check might not be something you want to do.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yup, pretty much up to the DM. I and many of my DMs (I play intimidators frequently, and often times of the exalted good bent, so getting a surrender over killing them is rp-appropriate) basically just allow an Intimidate check to get enemies to surrender once things are sufficiently hopeless for them. Not necessarily if they're exactly at half or less hp, it's kind of subjective. On a similar note, there's nothing wrong with letting a player ask for surrender without needing an action OR an intimidate roll if you think the NPC would be especially inclined to do so. I've seen lots of occasions where a party barbarian or whoever rips into someone with a crit for super-mega-ultra-holy-crap-he-went-from-full-hp-to-dead-not-dying-dead-I-mean really-dead-dead. And then he or the party diplomat type turns to his friend(s) and just asks if they'd like to give up now.

 

[Gregor]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

 

[Celebrim]

I personally have always had a hard time as a DM with firm and fast rules for when a foe runs away. The problem is that running away or surrendering is rarely a rational thing to do, and however realistic it may be on occassion, it tends to make it more difficult to judge the difficulty of an encounter. If you enforce it, and you don't enforce it on PCs - then it tends to up the PCs effective CR, meaning that they tend to pushover encounters that would otherwise have been hard. And, if you make the encounters harder to compensate, you increase the risk of a TPK when the luck runs the wrong way.

Also, it's another 'save or suck' power that bypasses hit points and has to be handled carefully.

Granted, in the real world, especially in antiquity most of the casualties occurred during the rout phase, but that's entirely the point.

My monsters do surrender or flee, occasionally even successfully, but I tend to make those decisions more on the basis of the NPC's rational interests based on the NPC's current information. "We are getting slaughtered here.", tends to provoke almost all NPCs into fleeing or if they think there is some hope for it, surrendering. I might allow a PC to force a surrender at a time I was already toying with the idea that it was about time to run away/seek terms, but I don't have a hard rule in place to allow for it yet.

Generally speaking, that only occurs when about half of the NPC's are already dead, if the NPC's know that they are at least 4 notches below the PCs in CR (PC's hit some goblins with fireball, for example), the NPC has reason to believe the PC's are invincible, if the NPC is already down to 25% hit points or less, or if something happens to make the NPC think the fight is now hopeless (things were already pretty bad, and the PC's get reinforcements).

 

[CuRoi]

I've seen lots of occasions where a party barbarian or whoever rips into someone with a crit for super-mega-ultra-holy-crap-he-went-from-full-hp-to-dead-not-dying-dead-I-mean really-dead-dead. And then he or the party diplomat type turns to his friend(s) and just asks if they'd like to give up now.

Oh yeah, we had an instance where the party Barbarian leapt in the air and decapitated the leader of a platoon of Ogres right in front of his entire crew - one of those power attack, crit, near max damage, raging, etc. etc. The other ogres were floundering around in a wide area Spike Growth so they couldn't really flee in their condition. The icing on the cake was the blood soaked, little human female Barbarian happily prying the tremendous Ogre's greataxe out his hand and jumping up and down on his corpse shouting "I got it! I got it!". That was enough to make them surrender on the spot (I think I pretended to roll some dice, heh).

The ogres pretty well became followers of the Barbarian after that point and the party put them to work building a safehouse far behind enemy lines. They feared the Ogres might turn on them at first, but their fear of the tiny and extremely musclebound barbarian was much greater than any need for revenge.