Using polymorph for a huge boost in AC

IceBear said:

As for me, I do think the main thing that broke Polymorph Other from the old editions was the chance of mentally becoming the creature too. Add that back in, and there would be a lot less people willing to be turned into monsters.
IceBear

I think the old editions was Worse.
Mentaly Transforming = Full use of Exceptional and Supernatural Abilities.

Evil Way: Grab a few pesants turn them into Red Dragons, Teleport away, rinse repeat. Instant distraction.

Good Way: Ask for a few Volunteers, Polymorph them into Gold Dragons, who have Poly Self allowing them to carry out thier "normal" lives, rinse, repeat.

Greedy Way: Hollow out a stone room with stoneshape into a dragon like shape, Poly pesant into dragon, stop up airholes and fill with water, wait a few days, harvest new dragonskin armor, boots, Spell Components rinse, repeat.

Dragon can be used as a Metaphor for any exceptional critter Griffon, Hippogriff, Troll ect...

Metalsmith
 

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Yes, but you're forgetting about the System Shock instant death that was part of that. That would keep the number of volunteers down. Yes, you still could forcibly "recruit", but I wasn't advocating changing the existing rules on the powers polymorph other's grant, just the dangerous side effects - forget who you are (if someone did forget when they got changed into a dragon, they still wouldn't be able to use all the special abilities above what the spell would give anyway), and possibly die during the transformation. I can't remember, but if the current rules have you turn back to normal form upon death, then I'd stick with that. If it doesn't then you could use your Greedy method now anyway.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to say to use the 2nd Edition versions verbatium, I was suggesting to keep the 3E spells as they are, but to add in the downsides of Polymorph Other as per 2nd Edition. For polymorph self, I might just reduce the duration.

I agree that the old version of the polymorph spell had issues too, but what the main focus here is the abuse by PCs. They're trying to come up with a way to prevent everyone from walking around as trolls all the time, and the main thing they changed with 3E polymorph is you get all the advantages without any of the disadvantages (other than roleplaying, which some people may or may not care about).

IceBear
 
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IceBear said:
They're trying to come up with a way to prevent everyone from walking around as trolls all the time, and the main thing they changed with 3E polymorph is you get all the advantages without any of the disadvantages (other than roleplaying, which some people may or may not care about).

House Rules forum, over there :)

Seriously you can't stop your party from turning themselves into a better Battle Form unless you disallow the spell. Here's a few things to keep in mind.

1. It's a pretty advanced party to have access to Polymorph on a regular basis, in any advanced combat encounter Dispel Magic should be flying a lot more.

2. The Arms Race, pretty soon word gets around about the Tactics and the intelligent opposition starts using Polymorph and Shield too.

3. The continual -2 to everything one does while Polymorph, the DM could arbitrate it incudes savingthrows.

Metalsmith
 

Metalsmith said:
Greedy Way: Hollow out a stone room with stoneshape into a dragon like shape, Poly peasant into dragon, stop up airholes and fill with water, wait a few days, harvest new dragonskin armor, boots, Spell Components rinse, repeat.

Wow. That is Evil. But sadly, when the peasant dies, he reverts back to his original form ... peasantskin doesn't go for much on the market these days. :)

I remember reading a post where someone's PC would poly all of his foes into goldfish.. keep them in a small pouch... and when faced with a difficult combat, would dispel the whole punch and then teleport the hell out of there.
 
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Lucius Foxhound said:

I remember reading a post where someone's PC would poly all of his foes into goldfish.. keep them in a small pouch... and when faced with a difficult combat, would dispel the whole punch and then teleport the hell out of there.

At which point all of his enemies say "Wow...that guy is a real arse....let's work together so we can do something awful to him..."
 

I know the House Rules forum is over there - this isn't my thread :)

1) Apparently it's not that hard as from the posts on here there are many people using this tactic. Just takes an 8th level sorcerer or a 7th level wizard with scrolls.

2) Exactly what this thread was started for. Since Polymorph Other has such obvious benefits wouldn't EVERYONE be using it now?

3) I thought they got rid of the -2 thing in an errata (so confused about the errata on this spell).

Anyway, yes, I've never had polymorph cast once in my game so I don't have a real opinion one way or another, but if it DID become a problem then I would HOUSE RULE it to have side effects like in 2nd Edition.

As was pointed out to me earlier, despite this being the official rules forum, you occasionally have to dip into House Rule land when discussing how to deal with a rule that someone considers broken (not that I'm saying it is, but it certainly sounds like it).

IceBear
 

IceBear said:
Anyway, I wasn't trying to say to use the 2nd Edition versions verbatium, I was suggesting to keep the 3E spells as they are, but to add in the downsides of Polymorph Other as per 2nd Edition. For polymorph self, I might just reduce the duration.

This is what I'm thinking at this point for house rules: PO will have an XP cost and will work like the OD&D version. You really turn into a typical creature of that type. Personality, classes, skills, etc will all be gone until the spell is dispelled (either forcibly or by the caster).

PS will have a duration of 10 minutes per level. Short enough that it isn't an all day spell and long enough that it can still be reasonably versatile. To compensate I'll go with the PHB version (change shape as much as you want and suffer the -2 penatly). You can't change into outsiders or elementals unless you are an outsider or elemental...
 

KaeYoss said:
Enough other fighters are not barking mad enough to take that.
You do understand that a character so obsessed with his looks that he'd rather look pretty than become almost invulnerable to attacks while wandering through a monster filled dungeon, is a certifiable loon, don't you?

KaeYoss said:
It may be OK for some warrior types to endure it for a short time, but once they're back in town and get near the ladies...... great strength isn't worth it if the price is to damn high!
What makes you think they won't just have the polymorph removed when they get back to town?

KaeYoss said:
Well, he manages to do both at the same time. But that's probably because he's an elf and not one of that meek humans. Anyway, he can get his AC to around 40 and deal over 100 points of damage, and all without turning into an abomination...
Wow. He always kills his opponents without getting injured? He is never in any risk of dying?

Or if he is injured, and is in mortal danger, he is so infatuated with his own looks that he gladly suffers pain and possible death in order to make sure the bad guys are killed by the prettiest elf in the dungeon? Go him!
 

Uller said:


This is what I'm thinking at this point for house rules: PO will have an XP cost and will work like the OD&D version. You really turn into a typical creature of that type. Personality, classes, skills, etc will all be gone until the spell is dispelled (either forcibly or by the caster).

PS will have a duration of 10 minutes per level. Short enough that it isn't an all day spell and long enough that it can still be reasonably versatile. To compensate I'll go with the PHB version (change shape as much as you want and suffer the -2 penatly). You can't change into outsiders or elementals unless you are an outsider or elemental...

For PO, what kind of XP cost were you thinking of? Are you going to automatically have PO cause you to lose your mind or are you going to have a chance like in the old version? Are you going to allow PO to give more than natural abilities? Just asking so I have the full details when I rip off your house rule :)

Your PS is identical to what I would use.

IceBear
 

Things you can do that are within the rules:

a) Apply that -2 penalty to everything liberally.

b) Apparantly there is some errata in TaB that limits the spells abit.

Things you can do that are in the spirit of the rules, are implicit to the rules, and should be in the rules but not actually explicitly in them:

a) If the character adventures as a member of a different race (say the fighter is Polymorphed into a Stone Giant) apply the Stone Giants ECL when determining experience he will recieve from combat. This will do two things: His class levels will tend to go away, as he will not have enough XP to be leveled as a Stone Giant. Also it will tend to reduce experience sufficiently that being polymorphed is less tempting. There is some obvious reasoning to use should the character's complain: "But you are a Dwarf learning how to fight effectively as a Stone Giant. That doesn't help you as a Dwarf much, and a Stone Giant takes a long time to learn how to fight better than its already naturally bad self."

Of course this slightly bends the way the Polymorph Other spell is written, because the spell doesn't mention this. (It only doesn't mention this IMO because at the time PO was being play tested ECL was a distant thought in everyone's mind.) Losing class levels (but gaining ECL) in this way should elimenate (or reduce) the physical side effects of gaining levels only - e.i. Fort Saves, Reflex Saves, increased BAB, physical skills (balancing as a Stone Giant when you've practiced as a Dwarf is somewhat different), and Feats when they relate to physical activities (like Dodge and Whirlwind Attack for instance). It doesn't effect Mental skills like Will saves, mental skills (like knowledge), or spell use; although, you still must make the Will save or be at -2 on this skills as well.

The only drawbacks to this is that it requires a good deal of book keeping, but really no more so than when the character gains negative levels from a wight or spectre attack. Also, you will need some sort of rough estimation of the ECL of X sans its supernatural abilities (but that shouldn't be too hard and you need not be that precise). In play, I doubt this will come up alot once you implement the rule, because the reasons for polymorphing allies in combat will disappear.

Things you can do that aren't in the rules but should be:

a) Force a Fort save whenever Polymorph Other is used on a target (at the spell's normal DC) or that target permanently loses 1 CON.

b) Force a Will save whenever Polymorph Other is used on a target (at the spell's normal DC-4) or that target loses its mind and becomes permanently mentally an average member of the chosen form in motivation, alignment, intelligence, etc. This Will save must be repeated every 24 hours that the target remains in this form with the DC being reduced by 1 for each day that passes. Once the DC is low enough that the target can only fail by rolling a 1, he no longer has to save (e.i. rolling a 1 is not an automatic failure). The character is considered to be adventuring at his new ECL, and if the ECL of the new race is higher probably will have several less class levels (as above). Because the mind has changed, even mental skills (like spell casting) are not stable and may be reduced as above (and of course disappear altogether if the intelligence is too low to use spells). The new creature will resist changing its form back if it is intelligent enough to understand the intentions of the spell caster.

c) Limit Polymorph Self to 10 minutes per level.
 
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