Using polymorph for a huge boost in AC

[Iku Rex]

Abilities such as rend are no longer considered Ex abilities. They are considered natural abilities. For obvious reasons, they are not going to errata every other monster in the Monster Manual.

Incorrect.

The spell specifically says that you don't get any extraordinary abilities. This has also been confirmed by the Sage.

It's up to the DM if you get the two (constrict and low-light vision) specifically mentioned, but they were probably included by mistake - see below.

<This page> contains several Sage answers to polymorph questions. (Note that he is mistaken about constrict not being extraordinary.)

Also see <Psionics Handbook errata> (Version 05302002) where all extraordinary abilities used as examples have been removed. (Originally the Polymorph Self in the Psionics Handbook was essentially identical to the errataed version in Tome and Blood.)

 

[hong]

Incorrect.

The spell specifically says that you don't get any extraordinary abilities. This has also been confirmed by the Sage.

The spell also specifically says that you get _natural_ abilities of the target creature. "Natural" in this case isn't a term of art, like "Extraordinary", "Supernatural" or "Spell-like". It just means any abilities that could conceivably exist in a creature in the real world: thus flight is natural (within certain limits), but regen isn't. It seems quite reasonable to me to say that rend and constrict are natural abilities.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The spell also specifically says that you get _natural_ abilities of the target creature. "Natural" in this case isn't a term of art, like "Extraordinary", "Supernatural" or "Spell-like". It just means any abilities that could conceivably exist in a creature in the real world: thus flight is natural (within certain limits), but regen isn't. It seems quite reasonable to me to say that rend and constrict are natural abilities.

I agree. I think it was an oversight on the MM designers to attempt to match every ability to one of the above labels without considering whether it was truly extraordinary or not. Obviously some things which we might consider "natural" in our world like poison would have to be ruled out as extraordinary, since the polymorphee can't go separating little bits of his polymorphed form (or whatever reasoning is handy); but reach, flight, swimming, constriction, natural armour, sprint (cheetah), pounce (big cats) and probably improved grab are all just functions of the anatomy of the creature.

Cheers

 

[Iku Rex]

"Natural" in this case isn't a term of art, like "Extraordinary", "Supernatural" or "Spell-like".It just means any abilities that could conceivably exist in a creature in the real world: thus flight is natural (within certain limits), but regen isn't.

Incorrect.

Natural abilities are a separate category, mentioned in the PH.

Did you look at the first link I posted?

It seems quite reasonable to me to say that rend and constrict are natural abilities.

That may be, but according to the spell description and Skip Williams you don't get extraordinary abilities.

(Like I said, constrict is a possible exception. Since it's an extraordinary ability mentioned as an example of a natural weapon, I think it's safe to assume that it's included by mistake, just as "swoop".)

 

[hong]

Incorrect.

Natural abilities are a separate category, mentioned in the PH.

I am looking through the glossary in my 2nd printing PHB, and the nearest I can find is

natural ability: a nonmagical capability, such as walking, swimming or flight.

Rend and constrict fit the bill perfectly. Are you perhaps suggesting that boa constrictors use magic to kill their prey?

That may be, but according to the spell description and Skip Williams you don't get extraordinary abilities.

So? I see nothing that rules out Ex abilities being natural as well.

 

[IceBear]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but according to the link that you provided, the Sage *is* saying that Rend and Constrict are natural abilities, as per this quote:

The spell description also lists several (Rake[Ex], Constrict[Ex] and Low-light vision[Ex]) extraordinary abilities as examples of the "natural" abilities you gain in the new form. Is this a mistake?

Not in the spell, in some cases, the creature description is wrong (rake and constrict aren't extraordianry).

IceBear

 

[Iku Rex]

I am looking through the glossary in my 2nd printing PHB, and the nearest I can find is

natural ability: a nonmagical capability, such as walking, swimming or flight.

Look at the end of the "Magic" chapter. "Natural abilities" (IIRC - IDHTBIFOM): Things that a creature can to that aren't supernatural, spell-like or extraordinary are considered natural abilities.

Natural abilities are not extraordinary.

Are you perhaps suggesting that boa constrictors use magic to kill their prey?

No. What makes you think that?

 

[IceBear]

But as I pointed out, the Sage (in the link you provided) said that rake and constrict aren't extraordinary abilities.

IceBear

 

[Iku Rex]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but according to the link that you provided, the Sage *is* saying that Rend and Constrict are natural abilities, as per this quote:

I know. As I said above, he is mistaken about constrict. (Rake is in fact the name of a natural weapon, different from the extraordinary rake ability. It's listed as an example of a natural weapon and it would be unreasonable to pretend they didn't mean the "natural weapon rake".)

Since Skip (presumably?) wrote the errata in the first place it's hardly a surprise that he doesn't know that constrict is an extraordinary ability. (Notice that the "swoop" ability, also copied from the AD&D spell, doesn't exist in 3rd ed at all.)

As I said above, in the most recent errata available for the polymorph effect, for the Psionics Handbook, all extraordinary abilities used as examples have been removed.

And finally, even if constrict was a natural ability you still wouldn't get other extraordinary abilities.

 

[hong]

Look at the end of the "Magic" chapter. "Natural abilities" (IIRC - IDHTBIFOM): Things that a creature can to that aren't supernatural, spell-like or extraordinary are considered natural abilities.

Natural abilities are not extraordinary.

Improved grab.
Constrict.
Low-light vision.
Camouflage.
Pounce.
Rake.
Scent.

All of these are listed as Ex abilities. Regardless of what the PHB says, nothing else in the core rules makes any mention of "natural" abilities -- everything in the MM is listed as Ex, Su or Sp, for example. I think we can assume that if the designers intended for "natural" to be a distinct category like Ex, Su or Sp, they would at least have mentioned it somewhere other than a couple of obscure PHB quotes, yes?

Basically, it seems that that "natural" is an orphan, which got forgotten during the design process.