Using Sneak Attack to power non-damaging abilities

[bedir than]

I'm working on a skills expert subclass that fits best onto the Rogue framework, because skills expert that doesn't have magic.

The Pamphleteer's abilities are generally buffs/debuffs and I'm thinking of powering them using Sneak Attack. The cost would be X Sneak Attack dice that become unusable and are regained on a Long Rest.

How powerful would those buff/debuffs and out-of-combat abilities need to be for you to give up combat damage?

Benefits are things like Temp HP, Adv against Fear/Charm, summon riot, grant advantage on attack

Yes, this might seem like a warlord-ish build, but the inspiration for the archetype is Paine & Adams (IRL), Kelley & Cawti (Taltos), Peter & Valentine (Ender's Game). It's a social heavy creation for games that likely have less combat than typical

 

[epithet]

The DMG has a table in the section on creating a new spell that has a suggested damage range per spell level. A starting point for your calculations might be to translate sneak attack dice into spell levels, and then consider the effects you want to give your subclass in the context of what level spell they would be.

When you write it up, you can keep all the "spell level" stuff under the hood and off the page, but it might be a useful tool to start your balancing math with.

 

[bedir than]

The issue with that is a spell slot (say 1st level) is used up. So, an example would be a full action healing spell that grants d8+ATT HPs costs a 1st level slot.

A SA die that is lost for a long rest might be something used 6-16 times during that rest as resourceful rogues might pull off two SA per combat, if not more.

Another consideration I have is that Inspiring Leader grants 2-25 hps to up to 6 friendlies and that's per short rest.


My current theory is something like two times spent SA dice temp HPs+bonus per usage, but I don't know if that's enough power. There will also be riders that increase at various levels

 

[aco175]

Can you expand on the concept behind giving up SA for other powers. I'm trying to get to the power behind the thief's ability to sneak attack and that being something to give up. I can see spells as a power that can get used up. Maybe fighters giving up attacks to do other fighting maneuvers. I guess the ability to target an opponents vital spots and do massive damage is something you can lessen and do some things like slow the target or give someone else advantage fighting it. I cannot see getting HP or such though.

 

[bedir than]

Part of it is a desire that I don't want the class to be damage focused.
Part of it is that they can point out the weaknesses of their enemies, usually pointing out mental deficiencies (some abilities may only be effective at INT Y and above, or something).
Part of it is that they would stink of ink and have crinkly papers on them so wouldn't sneak as effectively.
The granting of Temp HP don't translate directly from Sneak Attack though. It is an ability similar to Inspiring Leader, but I wanted to give it a resource cost and the Rogue only has one resource to grab.

 

[sim-h]

The Mastermind rogue archetype (SCAG/XgtE) does some of this already - maybe tweak that?

[edit] Also the Inquisitive?

 

[bedir than]

The Mastermind rogue archetype (SCAG/XgtE) does some of this already - maybe tweak that?

[edit] Also the Inquisitive?

For sure, several of the abilities are borrowed/inspired from those two archetypes as well as Whispers

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Part of it is a desire that I don't want the class to be damage focused.
Part of it is that they can point out the weaknesses of their enemies, usually pointing out mental deficiencies (some abilities may only be effective at INT Y and above, or something).
Part of it is that they would stink of ink and have crinkly papers on them so wouldn't sneak as effectively.
The granting of Temp HP don't translate directly from Sneak Attack though. It is an ability similar to Inspiring Leader, but I wanted to give it a resource cost and the Rogue only has one resource to grab.

That's starting to sound pretty Lore-Bardesque.
Maybe flat-out swap sneak attack progression for inspiration dice? Perhaps based on Int?

Or something like ability to grant a bonus equal to the number of sneak attack dice to an ally when you take the help action?

 

[bedir than]

That's starting to sound pretty Lore-Bardesque.
Maybe flat-out swap sneak attack progression for inspiration dice? Perhaps based on Int?

Or something like ability to grant a bonus equal to the number of sneak attack dice to an ally when you take the help action?

Oooh, so smaller benefits, but full use of SA!?

Proclamation of Urgency
You and up to five allies gain a bonus to initiative equal to the number of Sneak Attack dice you have. Due to the noise and odor you may not surprise an opponent, nor may you use SA during the turn you issue your Proclamation.

This is a quick example to test my understanding of your concept

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Oooh, so smaller benefits, but full use of SA!?

Proclamation of Urgency
You and up to five allies gain a bonus to initiative equal to the number of Sneak Attack dice you have. Due to the noise and odor you may not surprise an opponent, nor may you use SA during the turn you issue your Proclamation.

This is a quick example to test my understanding of your concept

Pretty much. My thought was that you would have to take the help or aid another action to grant this benefit, which would prevent most use of your own modifiers of bonuses for the task, and prevent most ability to apply Sneak Attack. The trick will be to come up with uses of the mechanism that will be more desirable than just adding SA dice to your damage, but not being more powerful.
Since its homebrew, you do have the option of removing SA progression from your subclass in exchange for something else rather than try to balance a concept that includes it.