D&D 5E Using social skills on other PCs

nothing...

technically I mean if you know your PCs eat with the most intimating of orcs, and you know that this one is Frothing at the mouth I asume you have some back story plan here, and I don't see why you rolled...
Bingo! That's all I just said. There's no point to rolling if the player knows with certainty how his PC will respond.

That leave us with the player being the one to decide the certainty of a social skill working against his PC and rolls only coming into play if the player determines uncertainty. That and your house rule to roll in order to inform you of how good the attempt was, which is fine.
 

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you aren't making any sense... persuasion is not a mind effect. by your rules nobody is ever effected or it is a dominate spell and nothing in between.
Actually, that's correct:

1) There are defined mechanics (such as dominate spells) that have explicit effects.
2) Everything else is roleplaying. If the target (or the human controlling the target) isn't quite sure if they think the attempt would succeed, they are free to abdicate their authority to a dice roll.
 


Bingo! That's all I just said. There's no point to rolling if the player knows with certainty how his PC will respond.

That leave us with the player being the one to decide the certainty of a social skill working against his PC and rolls only coming into play if the player determines uncertainty. That and your house rule to roll in order to inform you of how good the attempt was, which is fine.
except that is where we were 60 pages ago...

CHeck for auto pass/fail
if uncertain roll
PC vs NPC NPC vs NPC NPC ve PC or the original question PC vs PC
 

except that is where we were 60 pages ago...

CHeck for auto pass/fail
if uncertain roll
PC vs NPC NPC vs NPC NPC ve PC or the original question PC vs PC
No. There has been a whole lot of arguing about how the DM is the one to decide whether there's a roll or not and when uncertainty is determined.
 

Sure, but again, a lack of what to read into something is not the same as this specific thing can be read into it.

Sure, but what we are saying is that the DM might call for a check is not in contradiction or exception to the rule allowing players to decide. Both can be fully true.

If the player decides the outcome is in doubt, then the DM can call for a check. That's the "might" portion of the the DM might call for a check. he also might not call for a check as would be the case if the player decides for certain that his PC does or does not do something in response to a social skill.
I don't buy that. It's not - the player might approve a check - it's the DM might call for a check.
 

I don't buy that. It's not - the player might approve a check - it's the DM might call for a check.
It doesn't matter which way you state it, the "might" means that it doesn't contradict or create an exception to the rule on page 185. Both are compatible and can be used together without issue.
 


No, they include guidance for what subset of ability checks they are applicable to. The chapter on Using Ability Scores, under the heading Ability Checks says:
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.

Further on in the chapter, under the heading Skills, says:

A skill represents a specific aspect of an ability score, and an individual's proficiency in a skill demonstrates a focus on that aspect. (A character's starting skill proficiencies are determined at character creation, and a monster's skill proficiencies appear in the monster's stat block.)

For example, a Dexterity check might reflect a character's attempt to pull off an acrobatic stunt, to palm an object, or to stay hidden. Each of these aspects of Dexterity has an associated skill: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth, respectively. So a character who has proficiency in the Stealth skill is particularly good at Dexterity checks related to sneaking and hiding.

Here we see that skills merely represent proficiency at a subset of ability checks. There is no such thing as a “stealth check,” a character who is proficient in stealth is simply “particularly good at Dexterity checks related to sneaking and hiding,” and so can add their proficiency bonus to the roll when called upon by the DM to make such a check. This is why it’s written out as “Dexterity (Stealth) check” instead of just “Stealth check,” because the character is still making a Dexterity check, just one to which a character who is proficient in Stealth can add their proficiency bonus.

Further down, under the heading Dexterity, it says:

Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.

Dexterity Checks​

A Dexterity check can model any attempt to move nimbly, quickly, or quietly, or to keep from falling on tricky footing. The Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Dexterity checks.

(…)


Stealth​

Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard.


Taking this together with the other excerpts, we can understand that when a character or monster makes “any attempt to move nimbly, quickly, or quietly, or to keep from falling on tricky footing,” “(other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain,” the DM should call for a Dexterity check, and if the action involves an “attempt to conceal [the character or monster’s self] from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard,” the character can add their proficiency bonus to the Dexterity check.

We can apply the same analysis to Charisma (Intimidate) checks.

Charisma Checks​

A Charisma check might arise when you try to influence or entertain others, when you try to make an impression or tell a convincing lie, or when you are navigating a tricky social situation. The Deception, Intimidation, Performance, and Persuasion skills reflect aptitude in certain kinds of Charisma checks.

(…)

Intimidation​

When you attempt to influence someone through overt threats, hostile actions, and physical violence, the DM might ask you to make a Charisma (Intimidation) check. Examples include trying to pry information out of a prisoner, convincing street thugs to back down from a confrontation, or using the edge of a broken bottle to convince a sneering vizier to reconsider a decision.


So, “a Charisma check might arise when [a character or monster tries] to influence or entertain others, when [a character or monster tries] to make an impression or tell a convincing lie, or when [a character or monster is] navigating a tricky social situation,” “(other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain,” the DM should call for a Charisma check. If the action involves “[the character or monster attempting] to influence someone through overt threats, hostile actions, and physical violence, the DM might ask [the player controlling the character or monster] to make a Charisma (Intimidation) check,” which would allow them to add the character’s proficiency bonus to the Charisma check.
Lot's of text. Let's simplify
  1. Game elements can be specifics that beat general (PHB 7)
  2. When a specific beats a general, it creates an exception to how the game works - there's no limitation on that (PHB 7)
  3. Skills are game elements
  4. Social skills - like Persuasion - say that DM can call for checks
  5. Any general rule that gets in the way of that specific is ignored
PHB 7 makes your discussion of process irrelevant. Unless you would like to say that skills are not a game element?
 

It doesn't matter which way you state it, the "might" means that it doesn't contradict or create an exception to the rule on page 185. Both are compatible and can be used together without issue.
They're incompatible because the general rule would prevent a DM who - following the explicit RAW - decides to call for a check, from calling for a check. The text you are looking for is simply not present in the social skill game elements.
 

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