D&D 5E Using social skills on other PCs

HammerMan

Legend
It’s an interesting line of reasoning, and it does make the NPC -> PC procedure symmetrical to the PC -> NPC procedure, which might be aesthetically pleasing. But, I don’t think it’s what the rules as written actually suggest doing. There’s nowhere that I’m aware of where the rules say a (non-DM) player ought to determine if an action can succeed, fail, and has consequences. The player does, as I understand it, decide what their character thinks, feels, and does, and basically nothing else. So, while I think this is a great way to run it, and basically how I handle it when it’s PC -> PC, I don’t actually think it’s supported by the rules.
I think we all understand you don't agree. DO you understand that others read the exact same rules and came away with different opinions?
I think where our analysis differ is in how we understand the process by which the DM determines whether an action succeeds, fails, or requires a roll. In this construction, you seem to suggest that the DM can simply make that decision arbitrarily, and use the fact that the DM being able to arbitrarily decide that an action meant to force a PC to take a specific action would be obviously unfair. But, rather than this indicating the player ought to make the decision, I would argue that this indicates the decision is not meant to be arbitrary. The DM is meant to determine, not decide, whether the action succeeds, fails, or requires a roll to be resolved, and while making that determination necessarily requires the DM to use their own judgment, the rules provide guidance on how the DM ought to make the determination.
wow that is well stated, and i 100% agree. When I DM (and when other DMs i play under) come up with a DC, and auto success or fail, We are supposed to be applying the rules the situation, and the world... not just making stuff up.

That element of personal judgment is why I prefer to say a given ruling on an action resolution is supported or not supported rather than allowed or not allowed. Technically, the rules don’t say a DM can’t just say “the goblin intimidates you. He succeeds without needing to make a check and you hand over all your gold”, but doing so would be contrary to the guidance the rules offer on how to determine the outcome of an action, so the DM would not be well-supported in making that call.
agreed
To bring this back to the topic of actions meant to force a PC to make a specific decision, I think the “roleplaying rule” provides us with guidance on how the DM ought to determine success or failure in this situation - the player decides what their character thinks, feels, and does, so in the absence of more specific rules governing the resolution of a particular action, the DM is advised to let the player decide whether an action that would cause their character to think, feel, or do something succeeds, fails, or requires a roll. And note that something happening to a character (such as getting knocked prone) is not the same thing as that character doing something. Likewise, the character gaining knowledge (such as knowledge that they’re being lied to) is not the same as the character thinking something.
tthe problem with this logic, is it ignores the rules of both the PHB (Skill check section) and monster man (monsters have skills)
 

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HammerMan

Legend
They certainly did not. The problem, as is often the case, is people taking isolated sentences out of their context and trying to build a case for a strong implementation of the rules that supports only their view. Even the play loop section has a sentence that says: "But most of the time, play is fluid and flexible, adapting to the circumstances of the adventure."

And even before that, the rules also say: "Playing D&D is an exercise in collaborative creation. You and your friends create epic stories filled with tension and memorable drama."
yup
Moreover, the reason for me posting infrequently on this thread is that people are arguing from absolute positions (you MUST roll the dice / there is no reason to EVER roll the dice) when the rules themselves have an actually extremely interesting section called "The Role of the Dice" that explains that some people roll all the time, some people almost never roll, both are fine and, in the end "Many DMs find that using a combination of the two approaches works best. By balancing the use of dice against deciding on success, you can encourage your players to strike a balance between relying on their bonuses and abilities and paying attention to the game and immersing themselves in its world."
okay, just to be clear I don't make PCs/NPCs/MOnsters roll for everything... we have even had hours of game play go by with little or no dice rolled. I am saying that the rules support you if you decide to use the dice, not "YOU MUST USE DICE"

but I do love an miss me some colorful clickity math rocks...
Same with the railroading/sandboxing concepts, or (in)famous principle of player agency, and associated absolute principles, there is no such thing in the rules, just the fact that there should be general agreement around the table, and that session 0 is a good time and place to dsicuss these concepts and how they apply to the table, there is no right and wrong here, just use whatever is the best way for you to have fun at your table.
that is why I post as much as I do to get people who are claiming "Only roleplaying no dice ever...just describe it"
The RAW is actually extremely moderate and open, with many possibilities in there, out of the box, and without even needing to go into the options.
THis... 100% this.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
tthe problem with this logic, is it ignores the rules of both the PHB (Skill check section) and monster man (monsters have skills)
It does not. Ability checks are how the rules say the DM ought to determine whether an action that can succeed or fail (and if using the “middle path,” has a cost or consequence for failure), succeeds or fails. If the action can’t succeed or can’t fail (which in the case of an action that would cause a PC to think, feel, or do something, ought to be decided by the player) it ought not to be resolved with an ability check. Skills are how the rules say the DM (potentially with the help of the player, as per the DMG) ought to determine if a creature can add its proficiency bonus to an ability check.
 

HammerMan

Legend
It does not. Ability checks are how the rules say the DM ought to determine whether an action that can succeed or fail (and if using the “middle path,” has a cost or consequence for failure), succeeds or fails. If the action can’t succeed or can’t fail (which in the case of an action that would cause a PC to think, feel, or do something, ought to be decided by the player) it ought not to be resolved with an ability check. Skills are how the rules say the DM ought to determine if a creature can add its proficiency bonus to an ability check.
can an orc fail to intimidate?
can a barmaid fail to seduce?
can a king fail to persuade?
can a grifter fail to bluff?

I think we all agree the answer is yes.

Can any of these above succeed as well?

I think we all agree the answer is yes.

So if they CAN fail, and they CAN succeed, and we need to know at the table if the npc or the pc is able to (intimidate well, seduce well. persuade well, bluff well) do we have a game mechanic for if they fail or succeed based 100% on in game ability and not out of game discription? this is where we argue... I say we DO have a mechanic... cha (maybe +skill)
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
I did, back in the post you never responded to. Ability checks are part of the basic action resolution process, the most fundamental rule of the game after rule 0. All other rules are more specific.
I believe I understand what you are going for, but you'll need to start by showing how the skills are not game elements.
 

HammerMan

Legend
BTW
I keep defaulting to Intimidating because in my experience that and lieing are the 2 things that CHA covers that can come out of nowhere on a DM the most, and Intimidating is still 2-1 for lies. Not that seducing, diplomacy, persuading never come up, but they are corner cases of a corner case when it comes to PC vs PC and NPC vs PC.

The most likely situation is The DM has prepped for a social encounter, and doesn't need to default to anything. However I have found that not often but often enough Players will throw the DM a curve ball. The most famous is talking to/befriending the kobolds in the Sunless Citidel, but it has come up before and since. The DM plans a fight/physical encounter, and the player off hand says something about "why are they..." and this leads to a series of dominos the DM didn't expect... when the encounter creature is mostly a guard, intimidating is the most likely for it to be "Not a named NPC I thought about until now, and I need to see how intimidating they are" and as such providing that uncertainty as said above...

Now have I had PCs ask to for an audience with the Ghoul Queen and her betroved the Goblin King... yes, and yes before they said that it was flavor text and I had to on the fly figure out more motive then 'goblins ghouls working together and part of what they stole was wedding cake ingredients" (Just for the record that ended up with the PC Priest doing the ceremony and the PCs helping the ghouls and goblins create a defense agreement with the town... and in turn then having a weird town setup we came back to multi times until finally the 'nobles' of the towns adopted into the 'kingdom' of the ghouls/goblins and eventually annexed the next town over and an underdark city as well...)
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
can an orc fail to intimidate?
can a barmaid fail to seduce?
can a king fail to persuade?
can a grifter fail to bluff?

I think we all agree the answer is yes.

Can any of these above succeed as well?

I think we all agree the answer is yes.
It depends on the specifics of the action. What is happening in the environment? What is the creature’s goal? What is the creature doing to try and achieve its goal? If the orc’ goal is to make the grass grow by shouting at it, it doesn’t matter how intimidating it is, it can’t succeed. If the barmaid’s goal is to score a night with a hot customer and her approach is by giving him a sultry look and slipping him her room key, but he isn’t sexually attracted to women, it doesn’t matter how seductive she is, she can’t succeed. And if the king’s goal is to get the PC adventurers to accept a quest and his approach is by offering them a reward, and the players decide their characters don’t want to do the quest, it doesn’t matter how persuasive the king is, he can’t succeed.
So if they CAN fail, and they CAN succeed, and we need to know at the table if the npc or the pc is able to (intimidate well, seduce well. persuade well, bluff well) do we have a game mechanic for if they fail or succeed based 100% on in game ability and not out of game discription? this is where we argue... I say we DO have a mechanic... cha (maybe +skill)
Yes, if they can fail and can succeed, I agree that an ability check (potentially with proficiency bonus added for a relevant skill) is the way the rules support determining which of those outcomes occur. But you can’t just gloss over that if. Not all approaches can succeed and fail at all goals.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Technically, the rules don’t say a DM can’t just say “the goblin intimidates you. He succeeds without needing to make a check and you hand over all your gold”, but doing so would be contrary to the guidance the rules offer on how to determine the outcome of an action, so the DM would not be well-supported in making that call.

Just pointing out that, actually, he is well supported: "With this approach, the DM decides whether an action or a plan succeeds or fails based on how well the players make their case, how thorough or creative they are, or other factors."

Note in particular the use of the words "decides" and not "determines", although that is used in the previous sentence "determine success or failure as they like in other situations.". I know, it's only one of the two extreme approaches outlined in "the Role of Dice", but it shows that there is actually support for the DM just deciding whatever he wants without rolling the dice or actually even without mechanics. Once more, the rules are very open.

By the way, the "Ignoring the dice" is very much the way we play at our tables. This is not to say that we ignore the mechanics, but there is a lot of auto-success/failure based on descriptions of actions, and that for both the PCs and the NPCs (and their respective stats).

As for the "hand over all your gold", it's another matter entirely, it's not about the resolution mechanic, it's about what players find acceptable in terms of game situations. And yes, although it was a long time ago, some of us have been raised on dungeons where this happened now and then to characters and their magic items because of simple pipes or pools in rooms... :)

Rolling with it and ignoring the dice are called out as having drawbacks, while balancing between the two is not.

This is bit of a biased reading, both approaches do not have only drawbacks, they have advantages first and foremost, especially ignoring the dice, since the advantage is "This approach rewards creativity by encouraging players to look to the situation you’ve described for an answer, rather than looking to their character sheet or their character’s special abilities." which I consider a very good thing, compared to a disadvantage of " A DM might come to favor certain players or approaches, or even work against good ideas if they send the game in a direction he or she doesn’t like. This approach can also slow the game if the DM focuses on one “correct” action that the characters must describe to overcome an obstacle." because that is circumstantial and good DMs can usually avoid that trap (it's not something that we've had a problem with, actually).

To bring this back to the topic of actions meant to force a PC to make a specific decision, I think the “roleplaying rule” provides us with guidance on how the DM ought to determine success or failure in this situation - the player decides what their character thinks, feels, and does, so in the absence of more specific rules governing the resolution of a particular action, the DM is advised to let the player decide whether an action that would cause their character to think, feel, or do something succeeds, fails, or requires a roll.

While I agree in general, I would also like to insist on the fact that sometimes it's normal for players to be forced into doing something, because it's magical, although - usually for scenario reasons, it might not be obvious at that point. Encounters with Aboleth of Elder Brains or dominating vampires can certainly go that way, and players slamming the door for "losing their player agency" are absolutely welcome not to come back at our tables ever. I think lots of players (at least on these forums) have become way too oversensitive about what is, in the end, only a game. So, when in doubt, in a magical world, you might just want to assume that it was magic rather than a misguided use of an ability score. You trust your DM, right ?
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I believe I understand what you are going for, but you'll need to start by showing how the skills are not game elements.
Why? I don’t believe skills are not game elements. They are. Their function is to allow the DM to determine if a creature should add its proficiency bonus to an ability check being made to resolve an action it’s taking. Possibly with the help of the creature’s player, if the creature is a PC.
 


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