Using Summoned Creatures to gain an AoO

[Storyteller01]

In another thread, it had been brought to our attention that summoned creatures have been used to gain allied fighters an AoO/Cleave advantage. There were arguments for and against, including sound game tactics vs real time tactics, moarlity of the situation, etc.

What are your thoughts on this?

PS: I don't mind a debate, and some of the posts mentioned got me thinking in some new (if wierd) directions. However, I would like a friendly discussion. No matter how many smiley's you use, inferring to one's intelligence, moral standing, or perceived lack there of is really uncalled for. I'm just looking for opinions for and against, and why.

PSS: Be warned, I may defend my own views as well

 

[Scion]

I'll respond in a similar fashion to the way I did in the other thread.

This option takes a lot of resources to gain any benefit and it can backfire pretty badly sometimes.

We are looking at a fighter type with the following:
Str 13+ (prereq for feats)
Dex 20+ (in order to get the right amount of aoo's per round)
BAB +4
Power attack
Cleave
Great cleave
Combat reflexes

And a caster type spending a full round action on a summon monster/natures ally 3 or higher (in order to get d4+1 guys) and maybe a use from a metamagic rod or a higher level spell slot in order to make sure that enough guys appear to make this worthwhile.

After that, in the proper conditions (enough space, opportunity, within range, etc) then the caster may summon creatures around the fighter type, have them run away, provoke aoo's, allow the fighter type to use many/all of his aoo attempts for the round to possibly strike them (this is likely, but 1's still miss) to get extra attacks in against the bad guy.

Now, this can be a very effective combo yes, but think about what is going on here. We have one pretty dedicated aoo guy up there, and great cleave is a very, very lackluster feat to begin with (how often do situations where you need more than one cleave really come up?), and yet another character doing nothing but useing up spell slots and possibly item uses in order to get this combo to go off. Very intensive for resources (actions, abilities, what have you) to gain a benefit that likely is pretty much on par for what could have been done otherwise.

The otherwise part is something along the lines of the fighter type might not need a dex quite so high, or would be doing more damage were those two reversed. Most high dex fighter types use twf which do less damage per hit generally. The caster type could've used some other buffing spell (say, haste, to grant several bonuses to the whole party over many rounds instead of just this one combo for a few extra attacks) or used that summon monster to get the biggest guy it could, put him in flanking position, and possibly take a few hits off of the party (psuedo healing).

In the end, while the actual visual is very odd and puts people off the actual benefit that is occuring isnt really all that much. It takes a lot of set up, has a high price, and still might not be effective as simply spending those feats and spell slots on something else easier to get and more useful in many other situations.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm with Scion (as is usual in this topic).

EDIT: Hmm... I seem to be having trouble posting in other threads, suddenly ...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I mostly agree, Scion. I do think you rather exagerate the prerequisites and costs.

Certainly a middling level fighter could gain signficant advantage from this tactic with a 14 Dex -- comon enough because of the Dex 13 prereq for Dodge/Mobility/SA.

Power Attack and Cleave are common for characters with a lot of fighter levels. Combat Reflexes is attractive for those who use reach weapons -- there is a strong synergy with Cleave and Power Attack (two-handed weapon). Those three feats are meaty and popular. There only question mark is on Great Cleave. Note that Greave Cleave does synergize with Reach weapons and Mobility/Spring Attack because it is easier to secondary and tertiary victims.

So what are the in combat costs for doing this tactic? I would use a 2nd level spell for d3 1st level critters. So that is a 1 round action plus a 2nd level spell for an average of 2 attacks at full BAB.

If we are talking about a low-mid or mid level Fighter, that approximately doubles his offensive punch on average. Sometimes more. Sometimes less.

Why do this? What is the optimal opponent?

You are a Wizard or Druid who is facing a creature with strong SR and energy resistances. Demons. Devils.

The Wizard is burning a 2nd level slot against a creature where his 2nd level spells are pretty weak. Demons and Devils tend to have fire resistance.

Similar story for the Sorceror. The Sorceror can also cast spontaneously and is likely to have low level slots to burn.

The Druid has a similar problem but his low levels spells do not have any offense at all and his wildshaping may have to contend with DR. The Druid does not have to prepare for this tactic as SNA is spontaneous. He is less likely to have the metamagic feats to help punch through against a magic hardened target.

Whether the AoO+Cleave trick is useful for you depends a lot on your campaign. In 1e/2e/3e campaigns, we found that pouring all your resources into keeping the Big Fighter with his Big +n Sword happy and healthy was the only consistent and practical means to defeat demons and devils. This is just a variation on the theme of superbuffing the fighter because your spells suck against your DM's favorite BBEG.

In summary...
Costs: A standard reach fighter build + Great Cleave. Low levels spells. Spellcaster twiddles thumbs for one round.
Benefit: Fighter's offense is roughly doubled for the round.

In other words, if I have the right set up, the spellcaster is using a lowish level spell as a means to trade his round of actions in order to double the potency of the fighter. If the fighter is in the right place at the right time, that is a VERY good deal.

 

[mikebr99]

I don't see a problem with it... When the spell is completed, the summoned creature(s) arrive with the knowledge of who the caster's enemies are, and attack the closest ones right away. If this involves movement which provokes an AoO from someone... and a previously "friendly" takes advantage of the opportunity... the Spell (and all the creatures summoned by it) would add the "friendly" to the list of enemies... and if he just happens to be the closest, the summoned creatures would attack him instead, because he is closest enemy.

And remember if the summoner has no way of talking (on his turn) to his summoned creatures, he can't direct them to STOP attacking his friend, and start attacking one of his real enemies.

YMMV


Mike

 

[Scion]

I mostly agree, Scion. I do think you rather exagerate the prerequisites and costs.

Certainly a middling level fighter could gain signficant advantage from this tactic with a 14 Dex -- comon enough because of the Dex 13 prereq for Dodge/Mobility/SA.

Remember, I said 20+ for dex because to do less means allowing extra summons to wander around, and this could be very bad especially with opponents who can use similar tricks or have other things up their sleeves.

Still though, it means having yet another decently high stat and so cuts into other stats. There is still a cost there.

With only a 14 dex you are looking at a pretty minor boost, at that point it is pretty much always better to 'not' use this tactic. For reasons that I gave earlier.

Power Attack and Cleave are common for characters with a lot of fighter levels. Combat Reflexes is attractive for those who use reach weapons -- there is a strong synergy with Cleave and Power Attack (two-handed weapon). Those three feats are meaty and popular. There only question mark is on Great Cleave. Note that Greave Cleave does synergize with Reach weapons and Mobility/Spring Attack because it is easier to secondary and tertiary victims.

Power attack is really only good for two handed weapon fighters, cleave does follow directly along the lines of use for those guys, which is probably why one is the prereq for the other

While they are both very nice, I have seen many, many builds, even thf builds, that do not get either of these. It is mainly because there are so many other feats that they need, but also because cleave just isnt always terribly useful. Having a feat that is almost never used just feels like a waste.

Combat reflexes and a reach weapon is pretty nice but it doesnt help great cleave all that much. The hard part can be a valid target but in my experience it is nearly impossible as levels go up to get target + knocking enough people out in one hit. That combination, which you need at least 3 people to get to, is just not easy. So not easy in fact as to be pretty much outside of any common use. If they were so easy to let you knock down that many at a time then likely they werent really a threat in the first place. But that is when it is most useful, against targets that dont really matter.

So what are the in combat costs for doing this tactic? I would use a 2nd level spell for d3 1st level critters. So that is a 1 round action plus a 2nd level spell for an average of 2 attacks at full BAB.

Not a bad plan, still very specialized though. Taking two characters to be able to get this even started is a pretty big hit.

Still sucks though to do all of this and only get one guy, or to get three, only be able to take out two, and then have the badguy somehow use the third against you After all, if it is common to have such things the bad guy might as well.

That brings up another reason why I said such a high dex though, I assumed that with all of those aoo's at once that the higher dex guy would get to act first. Lower dex means you run the risk of someone else taking out your buddies and hitting you instead of the other way around.

If we are talking about a low-mid or mid level Fighter, that approximately doubles his offensive punch on average.

One guy gives up some resources and his turn so that the other properly built guy can get some extra stuff? See, this is why I like this option, the picture is very odd, but the result is just so interesting.

You are a Wizard or Druid who is facing a creature with strong SR and energy resistances. Demons. Devils.

This is why summon guys are good. They have attacks, ignore SR and energy resistance, and can be pretty tough guys when used properly. So I dont see htis as an issue.

The Wizard
the Sorceror
The Druid

Are all still useing a round to cast whatever spell instead of doing something else that might be just as effective, and sometimes can be more. Playing with the other guy who has resources spent on this tactic

I know you are not saying against, just disagreeing a bit, I just wanted to point out that most of what you are saying it already taken care of. One can use a lower dex, but that causes problems with not being able to take advantage properly to get the benefit all the way to it backfiring. The feats might be ones that are common for certain builds but that does not mean it doesnt take 4 feats to do this, along with one (great cleave) that is, imo, just about worthless. Cleave itself is questionable, but nice at lower levels. At higher levels it almost never matters, but it is a nice bit of flavor now and then. Needing that extra person to burn resources to get it going is just insult to injury at that point

In summary...
Costs: A standard reach fighter build + Great Cleave. Low levels spells. Spellcaster twiddles thumbs for one round.
Benefit: Fighter's offense is roughly doubled for the round.

sadly that is the other problem summon spells take a full round to get off, which means that chances of disrupting this tactic are 'huge'. Someone might move, terrain might change, someone might do something to the fighter type, someone might do something to the caster, or who knows what else. A round can be a long time to hope that everything stays mostly static

It is a very interesting combo though. Anyway though, I shouldnt say much more, I made my piece above so all I can do now is confuse matters. Just wanted to say a few things..lol

High cost, decent reward, lots of specialization. The epitome of d&d right?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Remember, I said 20+ for dex because to do less means allowing extra summons to wander around, and this could be very bad especially with opponents who can use similar tricks or have other things up their sleeves.

Still though, it means having yet another decently high stat and so cuts into other stats. There is still a cost there.

14 Dex and Combat Reflexes yields 3 AoOs per round. Good enough for a 2nd level summon.

If I were doing the Reach build, I would go for the Spring Attack chain anyway to give me the most options for tactical placement. So I already have a 13 Dex. Eventually that will be boosted to 14 (or 16) because I am not going to wear heavy armor (or it is mitral plate).

This is why summon guys are good. They have attacks, ignore SR and energy resistance, and can be pretty tough guys when used properly. So I dont see htis as an issue.

Creatures that have SR and energy resistance almost always have DR. The weaker summoned creatures are useless here. The tactic is a means of squeezing pure offense out of weak spells. Obviously if you have a prepped SM V or SNA V or better you are not going to need to messy around with these cute little tricks.

sadly that is the other problem summon spells take a full round to get off, which means that chances of disrupting this tactic are 'huge'. Someone might move, terrain might change, someone might do something to the fighter type, someone might do something to the caster, or who knows what else. A round can be a long time to hope that everything stays mostly static

Being attacked is often a benefit. The goal is to do everything within my power to keep the beefy fighter happily hacking away. If the BBEG uses an attack on the Wizard, that is a tactical win for the good guys. Obviously there are some tactical limitations if you have not cleared out the mooks. Mooks really do not last long when a specialized Reach Fighter around.

High cost, decent reward, lots of specialization. The epitome of d&d right?

Yup.

 

[Scion]

I dont know of many mages who would consider being attacked and loseing their spell as a 'benefit'

Most DR's are very easy to bypass, it is the few material ones that are hard, but summonings tend to either have high str's or other special abilities. Sortof like well made fighter types strangely.

Mooks dont last long against pretty much anyone, though some classes are better at getting rid of them than others. Great cleave 'can' be good for this, but it isnt necissarily so. If the mooks can take 1.1 hits before they die then it just doesnt work very well and hp go up incredibly fast sometimes, even for mooks.

There are lots of different tactics, I just like picking different ones appart to see if they are too easy, too powerful, too wimpy, too intensive, or whatever. In this case this seems like a very strange one, but viable. Not too bad.

hmm.. wonder what the next odd combo will be on the rules board

 

[Lasher Dragon]

I notice a lot of people seem to think Combat Reflexes is only good for a fighter with reach weapons. I personally like Combat Reflexes for the extra AoO's, however being able to get an AoO while flatfooted or on a surprise round is quite handy as well, be it fighter, rogue, whatever.

As far as the summoning in specifically for the party to get extra AoO, if I were DM'ing and the PC's did this, I might let it slide once or twice, but then some extraplanar demigod/deity is going to pay the party a visit. LOL I would love to write that encounter up:

(deity/demigod): So, I have been hearing some VERY interesting things from my pets. You like to play? Well let's just play a little game then....

Hehehe the possibilities are endless

 

[Scion]

the demigod doesnt care if you summon them to be slaughtered, only if you are the one doing the slaughtering? I am confused