Using Summoned Creatures to gain an AoO

[Ridley's Cohort]

Lasher reminds me of a weird one-shot style adventure a DM of mine sometimes used when he was not prepared or too few players turned up for the evening: the party is summoned by a powerful wizard from another dimension and compelled to fight to the death in some (usually) hopeless battle between vastly more powerful forces. It can be a lot of fun to play when you realize your death is almost a foregone conclusion from the getgo.

I agree that Combat Reflexes is a fine feat even for a normal build fighter. Not only is it a nasty surprise for those who try to take advantage when you are flatfooted, but it is good with Close Quarter Fighting when you are really tired of getting grappled by big grunt monsters.

 

[reiella]

We are looking at a fighter type with the following:
Str 13+ (prereq for feats)
Dex 20+ (in order to get the right amount of aoo's per round)
BAB +4
Power attack
Cleave
Great cleave
Combat reflexes

Hmm, something else I noticed. The fighter needs to be wearing armor that actually allows his effective dex modifer to be that high to begin with, and even with the reduced Dex 14 build, that leaves off most heavy armor (gogo Mithral!). To get the +5 'optimal' modifier, you'd need Studded Leather or Mithral Breastplate (not bad) typically... Which is a bit of a cost, although the Mithral Bp is nice.

The +2 Dex Modifier issue is actually one of my fun quandary points for NPC fighter builds. Where I decide if one point of Dex is 'worth' the subsequent easy boost in armor, especially when the feats in question for the Chain o Fun is just a +1 modifier.

 

[Shadowdweller]

And again, there is always the possibility that the attempt may backfire:

DM: Ok, so the five dire rats step forward, provoking attacks of opportunity.
FIGHTER: Ok, that's a 24, 26, 17, and....
DM: Not quite so fast. The huge, armored figure swings his doublehanded blade through the rats at you. *rolls dice* That's three hits for....*rolls dice* 37 damage.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And again, there is always the possibility that the attempt may backfire:

There are no rules in the game for deciding who gets to use their AoO first. Opposed Initiative would probably be best.

Part of the point of using a Reach weapon is to avoid the issue. It should not be difficult to set up an unambiguous result unless you are fighting something with enormous Reach. Remember you can Enlarge Person to give him a bit of Reach, too.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

reiella,

AC limits on Dex bonus only affect AC. They affect nothing else in the entire game. Reflex saves, skills, prereqs, Combat Reflexes, etc. are all based on the actual Dex mod regardless of the armor you are wearing.

I am agnostic on whether this is realistic, but it is unambiguous by the RAW and appears to be a purposeful design decision.

 

[Storyteller01]

the demigod doesnt care if you summon them to be slaughtered, only if you are the one doing the slaughtering? I am confused

Better question: Are they slaughtered fighting said deities enemy (which is probably what they were created for), or are the slaughtered by those who they believe are allies (probably not the original intent)?

A question that sticks in my mind. If you can summon several smaller critters, why not something one more powerful creature? I'm not familiar with the 3.5 rulings, but why summon the 'bag o' puppies' if you can call that can offer ranged assistance, or alter the terrain/situation in your favor? Seem like a waste of a spell for a tactic that might give an advantage (provided your BBEG can't do the same) for one single round.

All of this is giving me a headache! Glad I focus on Dragonstar. All the ranged weapons means never having to deal AoO's or Cleave!

 

[Storyteller01]

An interesting thought:
Do you think all (or a good portion of) the summoned critters that were whacked using this tactic will be there waiting for the wizard and fighter when they finally dies?

Anyone care to guess what they might do? X]

 

[Abraxas]

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller
And again, there is always the possibility that the attempt may backfire:

In addition to what Ridley's Cohort said already, the summoner can have them appear so that they have to provoke AoOs from your buddy before the BBEG gets a shot.

Originally posted by Storyteller01
Better question: Are they slaughtered fighting said deities enemy (which is probably what they were created for), or are the slaughtered by those who they believe are allies (probably not the original intent)?

I'm in the "No difference" camp on this. Either way they are being slaughtered.
Summoned celestials dying for the cause, what a glorious way to go. Summoned celestials dying because the mage is down to his last spells and desparate and they can't do anything but delay his death as they get cut to ribbons - what a bummer.

So I have no "moral" qualm whatsoever in this tactic.
All I have is a stylistic reservation - the BBEG shouldn't be worse off because he has mooks.

 

[reiella]

reiella,

AC limits on Dex bonus only affect AC. They affect nothing else in the entire game. Reflex saves, skills, prereqs, Combat Reflexes, etc. are all based on the actual Dex mod regardless of the armor you are wearing.

I am agnostic on whether this is realistic, but it is unambiguous by the RAW and appears to be a purposeful design decision.

Hmm, fair enough, but I still think it's a non-insignificant consideration for the relative balance.

Although you're right in that it dosen't Force them to use that.

 

[Storyteller01]

So I have no "moral" qualm whatsoever in this tactic.
All I have is a stylistic reservation - the BBEG shouldn't be worse off because he has mooks.

Not so much a moral qualm as..well...it makes no sense to me. I can understand a BBEG getting hit because a mook does something that provides an AoO. That's the price of combat. I find it hard to justify gaining an AoO from creatures you introduced into the battle, doing as you wish (even if you can't control them. It IS why they were summoned...), fighting your fight, just because the rules don't say that it can't be done.

I can see the 'die to defend me' tack. I can't see 'die to defend me as my ally destroys you...'