Using Summoned Creatures to gain an AoO

[Primitive Screwhead]

Summining, AoO, and non-such

First of all.. interesting threads. I appreciate the relative level of civility.

2 cents on this topic:

Summoned creatures automatically attack the enemy, this knowledge being imparted by the dieties/spells power and knowledge. Any being who prevents them from doing so must be the enemy as well. Perhaps a diety would decide that such a being remains an enemy and will speak to thier representative about taking a different path, or potentially eliminating/converting this 'enemy' that they walk around with. Regardless, any other summoned creatures will treat that being as an enemy for the duration of thier existance.

Phillip: You are miscontruing DnD Conditions and English Definitions.

Condition: Dead
The character’s hit points are reduced to –10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body....etc...

Definition: Dead
deprived of life : having died

The Summoned creatures do indead die..in that the life they hold for the duration of the spell is deprived of them, but they are not [Dead]. Thier soul remains in the outer plane and is returned to thier body after a 24 hour period elapses.
Of course, Raveneye is adding the pain/anguish etc.. which IMHO would be a side effect to having the body you inhabit being chopped up into tiny little bits...

As to AoO+Cleave, as I mentioned in the other thread, I believe that when faced against enemies that are working in concert that one can be Cleaved after an AoO drops the other.
However, if you are faced with enemies that are not working in concert, as the case when one expects the other to be attacking him instead of you, the AoO+Cleave will not work.
This means that when your summoned Mooks charge past your fighter, he can merrily hack them down with AsoO. He will not gain the benefit of the Cleave Feat in this circustance.

Why? suspension of disbelieve. Cleave works, IMHO, because the opponent you are cleaving into has had thier expectation of the battlefield change. Having a enemy drop does not change the battlefield.

 

[Storyteller01]

a The summoned creature is only a psuedo-real magical robot that mimics an actual creature who is going about their business unhindered on some Outer Plane. The wording of the Summoning spells, the Conjuration (Summoning) description in the PH's Magic chapter, and simple logic all show that it would make no sense for summoning to work as you think in D&D.


No celestial creatures would be summonable, because most do not generally cause enough of a difference in battle to justify the suffering you assume they would endure for it, and benevolent deities like Pelor and Yandalla would never allow such summonings if your assumptions were right.

Summoned creatures are unfeeling, unthinking, partially-real constructs of pure magical energy created to duplicate the appearance of an existing creature somewhere on the Outer or Elemental Planes.


.

One question then: This sounds like a more powerful version of the 9th level spell 'Atral Projection'. You wish for me to believe that a 1st level spell will call a conciousness, guide it to this plane in one round, and provide a body when a Astral projection cannot guarantee you the ability of finding the plane you wnat in one month?

If these are simple constructs, then why the 24 hour reformation delay? If this is a virtual senario, why not an instant unplugging and an 'oops, died again, need another quarter'. Even astral Projection does not cause this long of a delay if you die on another plane.

God DO allow their minions to suffer, if it suits their needs. Why make a 20th paladin or cleric fight their long time BBEG, if they can just send a solar (remember, constructs feel no pain) to do the dirty work. Why force the paladin cleric to suffer or die. Heck, why cause any of their underling to die, if they can just send an unfeeling construct...

Lastly, I'd like to think that WotC learned from their mistakes in 3.0 and and MtG. If a false body is created, then it would be listred directly in the spell description, without the need for inferred or circumstantial evidence.

Prefer the KISS rule. Over thinking tends to cause eggs to fly into faces

Now back to my original question: how, in real time, can one ally blatantly kill another ally to gain an extra attack. Morlity aside, just describe the process, blow by blow...

 

[Storyteller01]

Now I'm really feeling bad about all those summoned creatures we use for trap defusing... You know:

Player(...me): "I cast summon monster I to bring forth a celestial monkey"
DM: "Okay."
Player: "I send him forward to touch what looks to be a strange Glyph."
(everybody laughs) "That's the way you check for traps!"
DM: "Well, the monkey climbs up onto the altar, looks back at you with a sad, sad look. Finally, a tear in it's eye, it waves once- before exploding."

Seriously, we do it all the time. We always bring up the "They're not really dying" thing, but we know we're being cheese weasels.

I can't imagine our DM's allowing the summoned creature/AOO/Cleave deal. That's just too much, man.

-A

LOL!!

Sorry. Just never been in a party where summoned creatures were used like this. Rogue needed his time to shine, I suppose.

Then again, Iv'e never play with someone who has less then 10 years experience. (Not an insult folks)

Started in the military. Guys I played with had played for awhile, and enjoys messing with players/characters with alignment issues.

We even had a campaign where 'we' were in the game. Our minds in the players, no other personalitites. The rogue backstabs amn enemy. DM states: you know you just killed a man in cold blood, right?

Player: I know.

DM: No, YOU just killed someone...

Player: I KN... whoaa

Player was out for days on that one.

 

[Abraxas]

Now back to my original question: how, in real time, can one ally blatantly kill another ally to gain an extra attack. Morlity aside, just describe the process, blow by blow...

First you describe in real time how you can kill an enemy and get an extra attack against his ally.

 

[Storyteller01]

First you describe in real time how you can kill an enemy and get an extra attack against his ally.

Aready have. WIth a two handed blade, make an upward swing through the inside of the thigh. Enemy drops, and if he isn't dead, he'll bleed out in about five to ten seconds. Either way, he's dropped to 0 or less hp.

As the upward swing ends (it is coming into an upper defense, simnce that was exposed during a lower strike), it levels out onto a thrusting path into the enemies ally. Seeing an opening, you thrust in...

Please, no arguements on whether slashing or piercing weapons can be used to do something other than what the book designates them to do (two handed slahing weapons doing piercing attacks, etc), or whether the fighter in question does or does not have the prerequiste feats, higher BaB, whether the opponent was wearing full plate, etc. I'm sure this example can be altered in any number of ways.

The challenge was 'come up with a real time example where killing an opponent can give an extra attack on said opponents ally'. I feel I have done this quite well, using Japanese sword tactics (where the inner thigh was covered by a wooden or metal skirt) but feel free to rebuttal. Remember, not only is this my example, but it HAS BEEN done in real life. It's actually a valid technique taught in several schools.

Your turn: When, in real time, can you attack and kill YOUR ally to gain ANOTHER EXTRA ATTACK on your enemy.

Don't want to be rude, but I can't apply emphasis any other way. Computer is acting strange.

 

[Abraxas]

OK, here you go

WIth a two handed blade, make an upward swing through the inside of the thigh. Your Ally drops, and if he isn't dead, he'll bleed out in about five to ten seconds. Either way, he's dropped to 0 or less hp. As the upward swing ends, it levels out onto a thrusting path into the enemy. Seeing an opening cause you enemy can't believe you just did this, you thrust in...

With a bit of luck your Cleric buddy steps up, and being out of reach of the BBEG casts cure minor wounds stabilizing you bleeding ally.

 

[Storyteller01]

OK, here you go

WIth a two handed blade, make an upward swing through the inside of the thigh. Ally drops, and if he isn't dead, he'll bleed out in about five to ten seconds. Either way, he's dropped to 0 or less hp. As the upward swing ends, it levels out onto a thrusting path into the enemy. Seeing an opening cause you enemy can't believe you just did this, you thrust in...

With a bit of luck your Cleric buddy steps up, and being out of reach of the BBEG casts cure minor wounds stabilizing you bleeding ally.

Unless the cleric is casting as a free action out of turn, it doesn't matter. Fighter is using the immediate opening of the downed opponent to attack another.

Again, I see use of game mechanics to explain away a real time situation. The challenge was "explain in real time how killing an opponent allows you to make an attack on his allie". Did that (opponent steps up, gets hit. His buddy is in the line of fire, also getting hit).

I repeat myself; please give an example in real time where deliberately killing your allie will give you an extra attack.

 

[Abraxas]

I did - read it again, i added the word "your" in the sentance. If it works with the enemy why can't it work with an ally?

 

[Storyteller01]

I did - if it works with the enemy why can't it work with an ally?

So you would attack allies (including players, since in real time summoned monsters cannot be a battle field option, nor are healing spells) to gain an advantage? And you do not expect consequences from these actions? You don't expect other allies to NOT be concerned by this?

Also, why kill the ally if the bad guy is already in line for an attack? If the fighter is any good, your killing an ally will only make you a bigger target (your flank is now open). Wasted effort for a minor, if avaiable, advantage (the attack still has to connect).

 

[Abraxas]

Sure - if they were the enemy of my enemy.
You see it in movies.
Bill is my enemy
Bob is my enemy
I side with Bob to get an advantage over Bill
Opportunity pops up to take out both Bill and Bob.
Opportunity taken.

But thats not the point. If you want to make it a morality issue - go ahead, thats fine, buts it is no better a way to play than playing without the morality issue.

I've been gaming for 26 years. I've never played in a game where anyone had this issue with summoned monsters. In every edition of the game summoned creatures were used to set off traps, they were used to attack against overwhelming odds, they were used to delay the enemy just for a round or two while we ran away, etc etc. Up until this discussion I've never met anyone who even suggested that they were anything other than a disposable asset - and I'm quite happy about that

You keep asking how can you attack an ally and get an advantage against an enemy - examples have been stated. The fact that I personally would never cut down my close friends to kill someone else isn't relevant. The game world isn't the real world. The fact that in the game world I wouldn't (almost certainly wouldn't but you never know) have my character cut down a fellow PC isn't relevant. Summoned monsters are not PCs and in our games the gods are happy to send in the cannon fodder via summon monster spells

Heck, in 1E it was a pretty standard trick to be summoned (the summon monster spells could summon adventurers) and be used as fodder in somebody else's battle and use that as an adventure hook.

It doesn't matter how many times you say you wouldn't do this, that is a function of your game world, it is not a function of the game itself.

Certainly you can understand that.