Using Summoned Creatures to gain an AoO

[Storyteller01]

Because, based on our (some of us anyways) reading of the rules, the summoned creatures have already agreed to be killed in just that fashion (among many others).

Before your re-request for examples I had a counter post to Geron Raveneye explaining exactly why this tactic is not evil by the rules plus other comments. I deleted it and merely posted an example.

Basically a key part of that post went something like this - when Geron wrote "Was the killing agreed upon by the slain creatures?" The answer, based on my reading of the rules, was (and is) Yes. The fact that in the spell description there is no mention of the summoned creature(s) having any regard for their own well being makes it clear to me that they are completely willing to sacrifice themselves in any way necessary for "the cause". So, as Geron also wrote "If yes, we're dealing with a different set of dice, because then ALL parties were in agreement on the maneuver, and it can be seen as a self-sacrifice, which was willingly given and properly used."

But this is the same as saying, 'because the SWAT team did not specifically say they didn't want to be shot at, we went ahead and opened fire while they were in the building. Sorry dudes...


To bring up another example used earlier:
Your character is summoned by a higher celestial power (maybe using the 'Summon Hero X' epic level spell, who knows) and orders you into combat. Being summoned, you can't resist said command. While enroute, the local Solar uses you to gain an AoO.

Are you ready to 'die for the cause' in this fashion? remember, turnabout IS fairplay... If you can use a tactic, so can others.

Also, inferring info is one thing, but where in the DMG, PHB, Manual of the Planes, or any other source does it claim that creatures summoned in this fashion are willing to die for a minor benefit, repeatedly, because a combatant needs a reason to move faster. remember, Int of 3, so there is a consciousness and need to not feel pain unnecessarily...

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Okay, I understand you HR the term "Enemy" but you are trying to state that you can AoO it in the rules... but you can't by the rules.

You are trying to use a "literal" explanation for an "abstract" game mechanic....

That is the problem you are having... or should I say "did" have since you have changed it for your game, but you really should have disclaimers going in your posts about rules when you are "changing" the rules.

You can't AoO summoned critters from an ally (someone in your party) because they aren’t enemies by the rules.

You can interpret those rules and change those rules, and by all means do so as you see fit, they aren’t WotC rules, they are everyone’s rules!!

But, make sure other people understand that you are basing your arguments on your belief in how the rules should be instead of the RAW. I must admit it seemed to me you were trying to say the rule is this, when clearly it is not, but if you made it clear that this was your definitions and how you play them, then we could make a strong case that this was an okay HR or rule change and we could move on.

I think your house rule on declaring enemies to be fine, it does break certain fundamentals in the game, but it seems that you fix those as they come up or you use them to your advantage (bag of puppies). By doing this you add another layer of complexity that better reflects real life.

Undead are your enemy by nature of you being alive... in "most" literature and games... the ranger has a Favored Enemy in Undead for a D&D example.

But, I understand your point

Okay, about that dead horse? Can we beat it some more? I think I am about to level... It's amazing how much XP you get from beating a dead horse.

Sorry Wrathamon, should have given a bit clearer acknowledgement. Thing is, I guess we all have been discussing around the "AoO vs. ally" topic for long enough to simply nod our heads at the fact the rules as written specify AoO only vs. enemies and go on with the discussion as given. Wasn't aimed to confuse you or anybody else
Ditto on the XP, by the way.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

To bring up another example used earlier:
Your character is summoned by a higher celestial power (maybe using the 'Summon Hero X' epic level spell, who knows) and orders you into combat. Being summoned, you can't resist said command. While enroute, the local Solar uses you to gain an AoO.

Are you ready to 'die for the cause' in this fashion? remember, turnabout IS fairplay... If you can use a tactic, so can others.

Makes me wonder if every deity has a Summon Hero I - IX spell, and what the lists look like.

 

[Abraxas]

Okay, to bring up another example used earlier:
Your character is summoned by a higher celestial power (maybe using the 'Summon Hero X' epic level spell, who knows) and orders you into combat. Being summoned, you can't resist said command. While enroute, the local Solar uses you to gain an AoO.

So What. After the character was "killed" he came back from the summons and was fine. You couldn't actually die. You didn't even have to wait 24 hours to reform.

Are you ready to 'die for the cause' in this fashion? remember, turnabout IS fairplay... If you can use a tactic, so can others.

Not any more, adventurers can't be summoned. Back in 1E it was a so what situation. Now in 3E if you gate me in, we negotiate and I do have a choice of terms.

Also, inferring info is one thing, but where in the DMG, PHB, Manual of the Planes, or any other source does it claim that creatures summoned in this fashion are willing to die for a minor benefit, repeatedly, because a combatant needs a reason to move faster...

Where does it say they have a problem with this? You are also inferring.

This is just the way I (and others apparently) read it. Summoned creaturs show up and attack the enemy, regardless of anything, except if the summoner tells them to do something else - in which case they do that. They already show up for and die, repeatedly, for a minor benefit in almost every other instance. This is just one more way of dying.

We have a disagreement on summoned creatures - I understand your point of view (and thats fine in your game) but I have my own point of view (which is fine for my games). Either can be supported by the rules. I don't expect you to change your mind, but I would hope you can see my point of view, even if you disagree.

And thats all there is to it, we disagree on this point

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Summoned creaturs show up and attack the enemy, regardless of anything, except if the summoner tells them to do something else - in which case they do that. They already show up for and die, repeatedly, for a minor benefit in almost every other instance. This is just one more way of dying.

I see your point, no problem there, and I see where you are coming from. My problem with this argument is that it applies 100% to loyal henchmen, drafted soldiers and hired mercenaries, only that you don't summon them via magic. They show up in your battle ready to die for you, your cause, or just your money, do what you tell them, and in many occasions for a minor benefit on the battlefield.
Know what I mean? So where is the difference for you, and why?

 

[KarinsDad]

(To other members)
So why is it acceptable for good characters to slay summoned creatures on their own to gain an AoO, without repercussions?

Let me reiterate for the thousandth time:

IT IS NOT KILLING
IT IS NOT SLAYING
IT IS NOT KILLING
IT IS NOT SLAYING
IT IS NOT KILLING
IT IS NOT SLAYING
IT IS NOT KILLING
IT IS NOT SLAYING

WHY is this so hard to comprehend?

They are not EVEN allies. Allies according to the rules are friendly to you. These creatures are NOT friendly to you. They do not have an opinion about you or anything else while summoned except attacking the opponents of the summoner which is part of the compulsion of the spell. The enemy of the summoner can be another summoned celestial creature and the celestial creature summoned will attack it no questions asked.

They are slaves. Period.

People are associating all of these humanistic traits to these creatures which they do not possess while summoned. They can use their thinking to adjust to combat situations, but they do not form opinions about good and evil while summoned. They do not consider the sneaky evil rogue in the party to be just another bad guy and attack him unless told to do so by the summoner.

They are slaves which are not harmed in any way by the spell.

They are slaves which do not have any lasting effects, including remembering what happens to them.

Being summoned to them is like going to sleep at night and then waking up in the morning. They are totally fine and have no concept of what happened to them.


AND, it would be common knowledge in a magical world like this that they are not REALLY harmed because otherwise, no good character would agree to use them as a slave for merely attacking bad guys ANYWAY. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either AoOing them is evil and summoning them in the first place to attack others is evil (forcing someone to fight to the death for you), or NEITHER of these is evil.


So, you have yet to illustrate HOW it can be an evil act to harm a creature which is not an ally and which is not actually harmed by the act.

 

[KarinsDad]

Okay, I understand you HR the term "Enemy" but you are trying to state that you can AoO it in the rules... but you can't by the rules.

You are trying to use a "literal" explanation for an "abstract" game mechanic....

That is the problem you are having... or should I say "did" have since you have changed it for your game, but you really should have disclaimers going in your posts about rules when you are "changing" the rules.

You can't AoO summoned critters from an ally (someone in your party) because they aren’t enemies by the rules.

Quote your rules. For every one rule that you quote that you can only AoO enemies, I can quote five rules that you can AoO opponents.

I can even prove that summoned creatures are not allies according to the rules (and just did in my last post).

You do not have a legal game rules leg to stand on. If you do, please post the rules that support your position.


I can AoO whomever I please according to the rules as long as they provoke an AoO, are in range, and I have an AoO available still in the round.

Prove me wrong.

 

[KarinsDad]

I see your point, no problem there, and I see where you are coming from. My problem with this argument is that it applies 100% to loyal henchmen, drafted soldiers and hired mercenaries, only that you don't summon them via magic. They show up in your battle ready to die for you, your cause, or just your money, do what you tell them, and in many occasions for a minor benefit on the battlefield.
Know what I mean? So where is the difference for you, and why?

The differences for me are:

1) The summoned creature is magically compelled to attack and to obey the summoner. The allies are not. They can flee the field of battle at any time.

2) The summoned creature is not an ally. The allies are.

3) The summoned creature is unharmed (in the long run) by the events. The allies can be permanently harmed.

4) It would be known in a magical world like this that summoned creature are not harmed, hence, it is ok for them to be slaves and ordered about. The same would not be known for the allies.


In such a world, it is a known non-evil quantity to summon monsters and use them to "die for a good (or maybe not so good) cause".

The only good or evil thing in the act is WHAT you use them for, not what you do to them.

 

[Storyteller01]

Let me reiterate for the thousandth time:

IT IS NOT KILLING
IT IS NOT SLAYING
IT IS NOT KILLING
IT IS NOT SLAYING
IT IS NOT KILLING
IT IS NOT SLAYING
IT IS NOT KILLING
IT IS NOT SLAYING

WHY is this so hard to comprehend?

They are not EVEN allies. Allies according to the rules are friendly to you. These creatures are NOT friendly to you. They do not have an opinion about you or anything else while summoned except attacking the opponents of the summoner which is part of the compulsion of the spell. The enemy of the summoner can be another summoned celestial creature and the celestial creature summoned will attack it no questions asked.

They are slaves. Period.

People are associating all of these humanistic traits to these creatures which they do not possess while summoned. They can use their thinking to adjust to combat situations, but they do not form opinions about good and evil while summoned. They do not consider the sneaky evil rogue in the party to be just another bad guy and attack him unless told to do so by the summoner.

They are slaves which are not harmed in any way by the spell.

They are slaves which do not have any lasting effects, including remembering what happens to them.

Being summoned to them is like going to sleep at night and then waking up in the morning. They are totally fine and have no concept of what happened to them.


AND, it would be common knowledge in a magical world like this that they are not REALLY harmed because otherwise, no good character would agree to use them as a slave for merely attacking bad guys ANYWAY. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either AoOing them is evil and summoning them in the first place to attack others is evil (forcing someone to fight to the death for you), or NEITHER of these is evil.


So, you have yet to illustrate HOW it can be an evil act to harm a creature which is not an ally and which is not actually harmed by the act.

So bringing a fellow player to 0 hp (remember, he's not dead yet, therefore not slain) is not an evil act? He to is ready to die, else he wouldn't be there to begin with.

Also, when you bring up 'slaves' and 'no consequences', remember the storming of the Bastille

Also, the facts that said creatures are asleep, out of it, have no memory, are not listed in the RAW. However, there are several stories (based on D&D and the RAw) where summoned creatures do remember there use by characters...and return the favor, one way or another.

 

[Abraxas]

Know what I mean? So where is the difference for you, and why?

The difference is in all those other cases free will is involved. In the case of summoned creatures, there is no free will. They are, effectively, capable automatons and nothing more. The spell summons a creature that does nothing but follow your directions to the best of its ability, or lacking any directions, attack your nearest enemy. Thats how everyone I have ever gamed with has dealt with them, and it works perfectly fine within the rules.