Using Summoned Creatures to gain an AoO

Abraxas said:
Not any more, adventurers can't be summoned. Back in 1E it was a so what situation. Now in 3E if you gate me in, we negotiate and I do have a choice of terms.


Where does it say they have a problem with this? You are also inferring. :)

This is just the way I (and others apparently) read it. Summoned creaturs show up and attack the enemy, regardless of anything, except if the summoner tells them to do something else - in which case they do that. They already show up for and die, repeatedly, for a minor benefit in almost every other instance. This is just one more way of dying.

As for the first, DM are evil this way. HIgher powers don't usually follow the rules :)

As for the second, not at all. The spell description states that a creature is summoned. It does not say that bodies are supplied, creature will not remember, or that their consciousness is otherwise effected. Based off of this and info given on alignments, I would have to say that killing them for your own benefit is neutral at best.

But that is not my point. So far, only very specific examples have been given as to how attacking someone or something (use a trained hunting animal in place of the summoned creature, if you like) working with you (as in not attacking you or meaning you harm) will grant a faster attack. Claiming said animal got in the way is, imho, not a legitimate response. That tells me that you were already attacking. The critter could not have given such an advantage in that case.

How can a summoned critter coming either from your rear or side (if their coming from the opponents rear, you can't reach them anyway) make your already planned attack any faster?
 

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KarinsDad said:
Quote your rules. For every one rule that you quote that you can only AoO enemies, I can quote five rules that you can AoO opponents.

I can even prove that summoned creatures are not allies according to the rules (and just did in my last post).

You do not have a legal game rules leg to stand on. If you do, please post the rules that support your position.


I can AoO whomever I please according to the rules as long as they provoke an AoO, are in range, and I have an AoO available still in the round.

Prove me wrong.


Not trying to, just want to know two things...

1) Why summoned creatures, but not anything else?
2) Can you give an example where attacking an ally is advantagous (how can said attack on an ally coming from the rear make your attack on the guy infront of you faster?)
 

Abraxas said:
Because, based on our (some of us anyways) reading of the rules, the summoned creatures have already agreed to be killed in just that fashion (among many others).

But remember, this is a single interpretation of the rules, and as far as I can tell (both on this site and 3 other sites I've asked on) your view is in the minority.

None can find a reason for this action beyond using it to nerf the rules...
 

How can a summoned critter coming either from your rear or side (if their coming from the opponents rear, you can't reach them anyway) make your already planned attack any faster?
In exactly the same way it makes your attack faster when the summoned creature is summoned by the BBEG.
 

Abraxas said:
The difference is in all those other cases free will is involved. In the case of summoned creatures, there is no free will. They are, effectively, capable automatons and nothing more. The spell summons a creature that does nothing but follow your directions to the best of its ability, or lacking any directions, attack your nearest enemy. Thats how everyone I have ever gamed with has dealt with them, and it works perfectly fine within the rules.

It's easy to see how one can arrive at that conclusion. The only thing that bothers me is the fact that Summon Monster is a simple Conjuration (Summoning), not a Enchantment (Compulsion). I guess both interpretations can be argued from the rules out of the core books. So your concept works for your game, and mine...well, I DM in the Iron Kingdoms anyway, and the summoning rules are pretty different there. :)

@KarinsDad
I'd be very oblieged if you'd stop shouting your interpretation of the rules into my ears. I'm not deaf (blind). You keep insisting that a creature that has been reduced to -10 HP is not dead, but, according to the game we are playing, it is. Just as dead as the henchman that was reduced to -10. Or any other creature. Being at -10 HP is defined as being dead in D&D.
And just because the body is reformed 24 hours later doesn't make it less dead.
And what has this "they are slaves" got to do with anything else? First off, it is an interpretation as much as the automatons abraxas called them. I could argument for them having free will just as well, and just from the same rules. Second, even if they were "just slaves", killing them out of convenience is still an evil act, according to the D&D alignment rules. Third, even if they were just "slaves", that doesn't mean they can't be allies to you in a fight. Fourth, what they think and what not is absolutely not described. What is described in the spell is that you get a [insert creature], that it instantly attacks your enemies or follows your directions, if you can communicate with it. Fifth, what constitutes "common knowledge" in any given fantasy setting about the magic used and the effects thereof is handled with the appropriate skills, like Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), at least if you don't simply want to handwave that away. Which you can, in your own campaign.
About that hairsplitting between opponents and enemies...that's simply a course in circular logic? Most of the examples you quoted last time simply described situations during which a character was in the process of attacking somebody (thus becoming his enemy automatically), or describing under which circumstances a character cannot AoO an opponent (meaning that opponent already qualified as enemy, otherwise the AoO couldn't have been provoked but not followed up on in the first place). The one thing that might have an opponent who is not necessarily your enemy is the coup-de-grace, when your ally tries to keep you from CdG-ing a fallen foe..and even that is debateable. So where's your point? The rule as written makes perfect sense. If you intend to handle it differently, that's okay, too..it's the base of the whole AoO vs. ally discussion in the first place. We're just arguing outside of D&D RAW.

An lastly...your "proof" is simply your own interpretation of information not given in the descriptions of the summoning spell and magic, and of your perceptions of what an enemy constitutes. You say it yourself...you can AoO whomever you please, according to the rules, as long as they provoke an AoO...which they only do if they are enemies, according to the rules. A simple summoned creature running past you is, by your own quote, not an enemy. So they don't provoke an AoO.

And please...no shouting anymore, yes? :)
 
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Abraxas said:
In exactly the same way it makes your attack faster when the summoned creature is summoned by the BBEG.

How so? Said Critter summoned by the BBEG is taking out two opponents who will do you harm. This makes sense (killing two birds with one stone).

Not true with the critter summoned by an ally. You have to go out of your way to attack a creature that is no threat to you.


Here's another good question, and one brought up in the AoO/cleave thread: What wasthe designers intention when they constructed this spell? Did they intend for it to be used in this fashion?
 
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But remember, this is a single interpretation of the rules, and as far as I can tell (both on this site and 3 other sites I've asked on) your view is in the minority.
Well, yours is also a single interpretation. :)
Whats really funny is that everyone I've talked to in my neck of the gaming woods thinks your interpretation is odd to say the least.

None can find a reason for this action beyond using it to nerf the rules...
Actually, its a number of rules being discussed as they relate to one another.

Rule 1 concerns Cleave.
I dislike the AoO/Cleave routine.
You like the AoO/Cleave routine

Rule 2 being discussed concerns AoOs.
I like the idea that allies could provoke AoOs.
You dislike the idea that allies could provoke AoOs.

By the RAW my thoughts on AoOs and Cleave are wrong. That doesn't change what I think about those rules.

Explain why an ally doesn't provoke an AoO when drinking a potion in the square next to you during the battle other than the rules for AoO's say enemy. Don't explain why you wouldn't take the AoO, just why you can't.

I disagree that a non-enemy can't draw an AOA - even if this is by the RAW.

Into this we toss Rule 3 concerning summoned creatures.
You like treat them like PCs/NPCs
I treat them like spell effects

Neither is right or wrong.
However neither of us has to worry about the summoned creature AoO/Cleave trick. Why? Because you don't allow characters to AoO allies, I don't allow AoO/Cleaves.

So, I'm not disallowing AoO/Cleave because of the possible abuse using summoned creatures, I don't have to worry about abuse because I don't allow AoO/Cleaves in the first place.

My decisions/interpretations neatly solve the issue of mook liability and the morality issues with the myriad uses of summoned creatures.
 

How so? Said Critter summoned by the BBEG is taking out two opponents who will do you harm. This makes sense (killing two birds with one stone).
It also makes sense to get additional attacks at your highest BAB, thus taking out the BBEG faster, reducing the amount of harm he can do to you.

We're just repeating ourselves over and over and over and over and over.

I'm thinking now this was the purpse all along.

Well done ;)
 

Abraxas said:
Explain why an ally doesn't provoke an AoO when drinking a potion in the square next to you during the battle other than the rules for AoO's say enemy. Don't explain why you wouldn't take the AoO, just why you can't.

Real world? Taking that kind of attack opens you up to an enemy attack (exposing your flank). You can do it, but you lose out o defense and extra firepower (or muscle power).
 

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