Using the Twelve Swords of Power

[Torchiest]

I'm considering using Fred Saberhagen's Twelve Swords in my 2e campaign. For those who are unfamiliar, here is a site with information about them: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~warrior/12Swords/index.html

The biggest issue with using these items is that they are extremely powerful, and having more than one or two at most in the possession of the PCs would horribly unbalance the campaign. So, the idea is to keep most of them offstage, or in faraway lands, or in the hands of powerful nations under lock and key, and just occasionally let them make cameos, such as the party having to help transport a Sword somewhere, and maybe get to use it in a limited way.

I was just wondering if anyone had ever tried using these in a D&D campaign, and how they had implemented them. I've found two sites with quite different interpretations of them:
2e:Saberhagen's Twelve Swords (2E version)
3.5e:http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Twelve_Swords_(3.5e_Campaign_Setting)

I am also considering using new swords, either in addition to or in place of the originals, as one player has read all the books and knows the powers inside and out, and I'd like to keep him on his toes, though his character is a cleric and would reasonably have some knowledge of the Swords powers. In summary, I'm just looking for some other angles or ideas on this, especially if people have created their own sets of magic items or artifacts before.

 

[Rhun]

The biggest issue with using these items is that they are extremely powerful, and having more than one or two at most in the possession of the PCs would horribly unbalance the campaign. So, the idea is to keep most of them offstage, or in faraway lands, or in the hands of powerful nations under lock and key, and just occasionally let them make cameos, such as the party having to help transport a Sword somewhere, and maybe get to use it in a limited way.

While the swords are extremely powerful, many of them have drawbacks. For example, Shieldbreaker may well protect the character from all weapon and magical attacks directed at him, it would leave him completely vulnerable to unarmed attacks. Farslayer can only be used once, and then it will likely end up in the enemy's hands. Swords like Dragonslicer or Stonecutter, while excellent blades, are only of real use in a very few situations. And some of the blades, like Coinspinner give you a mechanism for controlling their use (i.e. it randomly loses itself and ends up elsewhere).

I was just wondering if anyone had ever tried using these in a D&D campaign, and how they had implemented them. I've found two sites with quite different interpretations of them:

Many years ago I ran a 2E campaign in which the swords were a central theme. I wrote my own rules for the swords. The players ended up with one of the swords in hand, and then they became a target for assassins and armies and everyone else wanting them. I actually wrote them into a homebrew campaign world, instead of using the world from the books.

I am also considering using new swords, either in addition to or in place of the originals, as one player has read all the books and knows the powers inside and out, and I'd like to keep him on his toes, though his character is a cleric and would reasonably have some knowledge of the Swords powers. In summary, I'm just looking for some other angles or ideas on this, especially if people have created their own sets of magic items or artifacts before.

I think creating some new swords would be an excellent way to handle this. Though keep in mind that the more swords there are, the less valuable they become.

 

[Torchiest]

While the swords are extremely powerful, many of them have drawbacks. For example, Shieldbreaker may well protect the character from all weapon and magical attacks directed at him, it would leave him completely vulnerable to unarmed attacks. Farslayer can only be used once, and then it will likely end up in the enemy's hands. Swords like Dragonslicer or Stonecutter, while excellent blades, are only of real use in a very few situations. And some of the blades, like Coinspinner give you a mechanism for controlling their use (i.e. it randomly loses itself and ends up elsewhere).

Good points, all. I had definitely planned on having Coinspinner make some brief cameos, and I have some solid ideas for Dragonslicer being chased around by members of the Cult of the Dragon. I'd also really like to see Doomgiver get some center stage time, since I always felt like it was underutilized in the original books.

Many years ago I ran a 2E campaign in which the swords were a central theme. I wrote my own rules for the swords. The players ended up with one of the swords in hand, and then they became a target for assassins and armies and everyone else wanting them. I actually wrote them into a homebrew campaign world, instead of using the world from the books.

Which Sword(s) did you let them get ahold of? Were they able to keep them for long, or did they get snatched away by the vagaries of existence, as they tend to be? I'd love to hear more details about how you worked them into your campaign.

I think creating some new swords would be an excellent way to handle this. Though keep in mind that the more swords there are, the less valuable they become.

I've come up with some names and ideas for powers:

• Lightbringer - Similar to Dragonslicer, except it works against the Undead. I'd debated making it need to be exposed to sunlight at regular intervals to "stay charged" or something like that. Symbol is a sunburst.
• Backstabber - Provides permanent improved invisibility and is poisonous. Symbol is a curved dagger. Maybe it could cause paranoia or something if used too frequently.
• Farseer - Provides permanent clairaudience, clairvoyance, and ESP. The drawback could be simple information overload in crowded places. Symbol might be a pair of closed eyes or maybe some wavy lines.
• Windwalker - ?
• Tombsealer - ?

I have some other names that aren't as good, but those are my top ideas so far. I've considered keep swords like Soulcutter and The Mindsword way way off the map for a long time, or just not using them at all, since the former is not very "fun" and the latter seems far too overpowered to be introduced in any but the most delicate circumstances. Something else I've considered is renaming and "re-symboling" some of the existing Swords to keep it confusing and/or fresh.

 

[Noctos]

i understand your worries but to be honest these swords are not that bad. i had mages that made crazier things in my game than those. and i dealt with like any good dm would i broke it later or gave it a random and huge draw back.

 

[Torchiest]

You could be right. Perhaps I'm just such a fanboi about the books that I've lost perspective on them haha.

 

[Rhun]

I'd also really like to see Doomgiver get some center stage time, since I always felt like it was underutilized in the original books.

I agree completely. Doomgiver was actually one of my favorites, even though they didn't mention it much (I think because it was destroyed by Shieldbreaker early on). The story "Blind Man's Blade" gives some ideas of what it is capable of, though.

Which Sword(s) did you let them get ahold of? Were they able to keep them for long, or did they get snatched away by the vagaries of existence, as they tend to be? I'd love to hear more details about how you worked them into your campaign.

Interestingly enough, I let them get a hold of Coinspinner, Wayfinder and Dragonslicer. They kept Dragonslicer longest, and it really wasn't too overpowering since it had limited usefulness. I did have them attacked by a pair of dragons, just so they could get a chance to use it to the full extent of their abilities. Coinspinner proved too powerful in their hands, so it was mysteriously "lost" (which is okay, because that is part of the mystery of that sword). And they really enjoyed Wayfinder, but ultimately it was stolen from them.

I'll have to see if I can find some more details of how it all worked. It was back in the mid-90s, and my brain doesn't remember so well anymore.

I've come up with some names and ideas for powers:

• Lightbringer - Similar to Dragonslicer, except it works against the Undead. I'd debated making it need to be exposed to sunlight at regular intervals to "stay charged" or something like that. Symbol is a sunburst.
• Backstabber - Provides permanent improved invisibility and is poisonous. Symbol is a curved dagger. Maybe it could cause paranoia or something if used too frequently.
• Farseer - Provides permanent clairaudience, clairvoyance, and ESP. The drawback could be simple information overload in crowded places. Symbol might be a pair of closed eyes or maybe some wavy lines.
• Windwalker - ?
• Tombsealer - ?

I have some other names that aren't as good, but those are my top ideas so far. I've considered keep swords like Soulcutter and The Mindsword way way off the map for a long time, or just not using them at all, since the former is not very "fun" and the latter seems far too overpowered to be introduced in any but the most delicate circumstances. Something else I've considered is renaming and "re-symboling" some of the existing Swords to keep it confusing and/or fresh.

Your ideas sound good. In my opinion Mindsword is the most powerful of the swords...you can dominate vast armies with it and cause them to do your bidding. It is a sword made for the BBEG to use. Soulcutter isn't all that fun, especially since it offers no protection to its wielder from its own power. Maybe if you could get Shieldbreaker and Soulcutter at the same time?

 

[Torchiest]

Interestingly enough, I let them get a hold of Coinspinner, Wayfinder and Dragonslicer. They kept Dragonslicer longest, and it really wasn't too overpowering since it had limited usefulness. I did have them attacked by a pair of dragons, just so they could get a chance to use it to the full extent of their abilities. Coinspinner proved too powerful in their hands, so it was mysteriously "lost" (which is okay, because that is part of the mystery of that sword). And they really enjoyed Wayfinder, but ultimately it was stolen from them.

I'll have to see if I can find some more details of how it all worked. It was back in the mid-90s, and my brain doesn't remember so well anymore.

Another one that could potentially be handled would be Townsaver, since it wouldn't be very useful when actually out in the world adventuring, but could occasionally be called upon to defend villages and such.

I also had an idea for the party confronting some hated villain, and having Farslayer come blazing along in the middle of some dramatic speech and kill the bad guy, just for a plot twist. Perhaps a rival villain could've used it.

Your ideas sound good. In my opinion Mindsword is the most powerful of the swords...you can dominate vast armies with it and cause them to do your bidding. It is a sword made for the BBEG to use. Soulcutter isn't all that fun, especially since it offers no protection to its wielder from its own power. Maybe if you could get Shieldbreaker and Soulcutter at the same time?

Definitely agree. I never understood why Saberhagen came up with Soulcutter in the first place. It's such a miserable, hateful thing. I suppose it could work as a trap of sorts, since it's basically a cursed magic item. In fact, a quest to permanently destroy it could also be an option. Or it could, indeed, be in the possession of an evil force, maybe it gets planted in the sewers of a city, and causes a slow, seeping sort of drain instead of its usual instant crippling apathy.

Another gameplay mechanic I've considered is a rule for when Swords go into direct opposition with each other. I think a straight 50/50 rule, giving each Sword an even chance to overcome the others powers, would be best. I've even considered not making Shieldbreaker the end-all-be-all weapon, and letting it actually be overpowered by Swords like Doomgiver. I know, going against canon! But I don't think there were really very many times when Swords were put into direct conflict, other than when Shieldbreaker was destroying other Swords. Another option might be to figure out ways for different combinations to have different types of stalemates, or draws, when used against each other. Or make little charts for a spread of different outcomes, from one extreme to the other.

Actually, that just gave me a funny idea. I wonder if Doomgiver actually DID defeat Shieldbreaker in the first book, in a weird way, or at least defeat its wielder. Notice how Vulcan was eventually overcome by unarmed people despite his supposedly unlimited power. I wonder if that was Saberhagen's slickest, most subtle power usage of the series.

What you said about the Mindsword gave me a crazy idea for a long term campaign thread, namely that the party must eventually stop a BBEG with Mindsword by using some of the other swords. If the party had Shieldbreaker, Sightblinder,and Doomgiver, all three wielders would be able to overcome Mindsword's power, I believe, unless, of course, I put my 50/50 rule into effect. But that would have to be some sort of epic finale, to have that many Swords in action at once.

 

[ashockney]

Wow! It's throwback time. Saberhagen's swords and 2e. Ah, memories...

Most of my campaigns were set in the FR. In the early/mid nineties I developed a campaign, whose primary storyline was an homage to Saberhagen's swords.

I called it the Seven Swords of Cyric. He created the swords while testing his new "God" powers, since he didn't know how it all worked yet. The swords were very powerful, and had big reactions (that were unpredictable) in each others presence, they were always well guarded and at times wielded by some of the most powerful beings in the realms. Of course, Fzoul was interested in acquiring one. I did let them fall into and out of the hands of the players, and they enjoyed that. Play up the disadvantages as much as the advantages. In 2e terms, treat them as artifacts, and I'd defer to the box set for the "Rod of Seven Parts" as a resource for how to deal with their intro into your campaign. Keep in mind they'd have a "magic sword" anyway, but from there it's about translating the powers into something strong, but more finite. For example, you don't destroy a mountain, but you can move earth or dig like the spell (1/day, 3/day, etc.). Also, in this way, you can always fall back on the "it's an instrument of evil" if things got out of control.

Good Gaming!

 

[Torchiest]

Wow! It's throwback time. Saberhagen's swords and 2e. Ah, memories...

Yep, I always wanted to do a campaign with the Swords, but never got around to it before.

Most of my campaigns were set in the FR. In the early/mid nineties I developed a campaign, whose primary storyline was an homage to Saberhagen's swords.

I called it the Seven Swords of Cyric. He created the swords while testing his new "God" powers, since he didn't know how it all worked yet. The swords were very powerful, and had big reactions (that were unpredictable) in each others presence, they were always well guarded and at times wielded by some of the most powerful beings in the realms. Of course, Fzoul was interested in acquiring one. I did let them fall into and out of the hands of the players, and they enjoyed that.

Were all your swords the same, or did they have varying powers? If they were different, how so? Did you just pick your favorite seven of the original Twelve and modify their powers? Because at this point, I'm thinking I may go as high as 18-20 total Swords, but I'm going to spread them very far and wide over the entirety of Faerûn, such that only a few will be in the active campaign at once. I'm still not sure what their creation story will be though, or if I'll just never make it clear how they came to be.

Play up the disadvantages as much as the advantages. In 2e terms, treat them as artifacts, and I'd defer to the box set for the "Rod of Seven Parts" as a resource for how to deal with their intro into your campaign. Keep in mind they'd have a "magic sword" anyway, but from there it's about translating the powers into something strong, but more finite. For example, you don't destroy a mountain, but you can move earth or dig like the spell (1/day, 3/day, etc.). Also, in this way, you can always fall back on the "it's an instrument of evil" if things got out of control.

Good Gaming!

I'm beginning to get some idea on how I want to modify the powers now. I think most of them I will actually leave working as they did in the books, but I'm going to nerf a few, primarily Shieldbreaker, which I think will not work against "natural" weapons like the claws of regular animals, since it didn't stop human "claws" in the books. Magical creatures would still be stopped, oddly. And I think I'm going to change all the mind effecting powers to not work on creatures of animal or lower intelligence, even though Sightblinder, for example, worked on the messenger birds in the books.

 

[Rhun]

Definitely agree. I never understood why Saberhagen came up with Soulcutter in the first place. It's such a miserable, hateful thing.

I think Saberhagen used Soulcutter simply as a counter for MMindsword.

Another gameplay mechanic I've considered is a rule for when Swords go into direct opposition with each other. I think a straight 50/50 rule, giving each Sword an even chance to overcome the others powers, would be best. I've even considered not making Shieldbreaker the end-all-be-all weapon, and letting it actually be overpowered by Swords like Doomgiver. I know, going against canon! But I don't think there were really very many times when Swords were put into direct conflict, other than when Shieldbreaker was destroying other Swords. Another option might be to figure out ways for different combinations to have different types of stalemates, or draws, when used against each other. Or make little charts for a spread of different outcomes, from one extreme to the other.

Obviously very non-canon, but it will be your game after all. With that said, if you read all of the books and stories, ever sword with the exception of Woundhealer is eventually destroyed by Shieldbreaker. And when those two are used in conflict, Woundhealer destroys Shieldbreaker. I think Saberhagen purposely made it that way, so that once all and said was done the only blade that would still be left is the one that couldn't be used as a weapons.