D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Wulf Ratbane]

Now, I don't want to open the can of worms that the discussion of ability scores and CR is, because I agree that a player's high stat rolls shouldn't be included. However, I DO think that any other modifier should be included.

Oh, these damned ability scores!

All ability scores SHOULD be rated-- or, at the least, the mechanic for rating them should be there. The purpose is not to have them there to "penalize" players with ECL. It's simple enough for the DM to just say, "1 Character Level = 1 CR" and leave it at that-- but that would be the exception to the "hard math" rules provided. That's just a short-cut the DM can make, knowing that it's math in the players' favor-- and that's fine.

But that's not the whole story, and it strips a lot of the utility away from UK's system.

1) The DM can look at his players' Ability Scores to calculate their "true" CR in order to challenge them appropriately. This works for both above average and below average scores.

2) The DM needs to be able to create "elite" monsters (how about a smarter or wiser ogre?) and he needs to know how an arbitrary increase in ability scores will affect CR. The definition of "arbitrary" here is an ability score that is increased NOT as a result of: increased HD (+1 per 4 HD), Size (Str, Con increases, Dex decreases as a function of size), or any of the other "template" type factors that UK has already provided. The +0.1 per +1 ability works fine here.

Regarding the "Design Parameters" section where UK makes certain recommendations for outsiders and other "supernatural" creatures, I think I am reading (or, for certain, intending to implement) that differently. I read the Design Parameters as guidelines for where the ability scores should fall-- but they are NOT freebies. I may very well agree that Outsiders should have an elite array as a baseline-- but they should PAY for that elite array, because those ability scores WILL raise the CR of that creature.

I don't particularly care if the Size template includes or does not include ability score (or natural armor) increases or not. However, whatever each size category DOES include should definitely be broken out for the user to see.

Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

(I'm building an Excel spreadsheet to calculate CR... It's quite beautiful)

I am sure I am not the only one who would like you to provide that file, ready or not!

 

[xanatos]

I am sure I am not the only one who would like you to provide that file, ready or not!

I'm at a good point. I have already inserted all the data from the IH and I've began writing some formulas. Tomorrow I'll write the macros for the buttons. I think that Sunday/Monday I'll be able to send to Upper_Krust a beta release of the sheet.
The problem is that I'm not completly happy with building an Excel Spreadsheet, and I think that an Access database would be better. With the Excel Spreadsheet you put data and rules on how to manipulate data in the same place. If you want to change the rules, you can't (if next year UK will tell us that it would be better to calculate CR using different modifiers, I couldn't modify the spreadsheet AND recalculate old data. Using a database it would be possible. You save data and the manipulation functions are in the interface)

--- Bye

 

[xanatos]

On attributes... Just to be sure (I cannot put the rule "at the whim of the user something happens" in a spreadsheet):
- what do you get "for free" (as a +0 modifier to CR): nothing, everything 10, Generic Creature Base (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) or one of your chosing between Generic Creature Base and Individual Creature Base?
- if the reply was everything 10, then you have to pay to have the Generic Creature Base or the Individual Creature Base, right?
- you then add on top of this the "free points" from Size and other templates (you have to pay for Size and other templates)
- For every 4 full dices of "monster HD" or "PC/NPC class" you get a free +1 to an attribute (or perhaps you don't have to count monster HD).

--- Bye

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yes I did

But his lousy scores would put his CR way lower than your estimate anyways. I'm actually quite confused by your appliance (or lack of) of ability scores in CR calculation. See below, please

It all depends on whether you want to start mucking about with PCs Ability Scores. I don't, I prefer the inherant simplicity of the 1 Level = 1 CR mantra.

So I did. Which would bring the total to CR 4.39. Close to the 4.43 you get. But what about the dobbelgangers +14 to ability scores then?

I didn't rate them, same as I wouldn't have rated a PC with the same scores.

I am under the impression, as I've stated earlier, that ability modifiers that are not part of Size affect CR on a +1/0.1 basis. If not, I'm lost.

Average Ability Modifiers are included in the Size factor.

Obiviously, the Ogre's rotten mental stats are not included in his CR and neither is the Doppelganger's superior stats.

Correct.

In answering my questions on the trolls ECL, you implied that the Troll's CR didn't reflect its better than large size ability scores.

Thats correct. Remember with Troll Traits you are essentially rolling up a PC then applying the Troll Traits. With +12 bonuses to both STR and CON you could easily end up with a character with both scores in the high 20s!

Now, I don't want to open the can of worms that the discussion of ability scores and CR is, because I agree that a player's high stat rolls shouldn't be included. However, I DO think that any other modifier should be included.

All modifiers to ability scores that are not luck (or within the parameters of PC luck from starting ability scores are rated).

If the CR listings in v.4 do not include modiers from stats beyond size, two problems occur IMO:

1. Some monsters are underrated, some monsters overrated. The Troll is more dangerous than its listed CR (even enough to change the EL) and the Ogre is not as dangerous as listed (vulnerable to magic due to low wis, for example).

Just like some PCs have high ability scores, some have lower scores.

It all depends on how accurate you want to be. Everything you need to determine CRs and ECLs for both Monsters and PCs factoring Ability Scores is in v4.

2. It is not possible to use the CR listings as ECL. One has to doublecheck to get the correct modifier from stats and size.

Comments?

You can use them, but they won't be as accurate as they would specifically determining the monsters Traits - which is effectively a Template.

Ah.. I was mislead by the elf warrior being first lvl.

Easy done, I seem to have missed a few things myself.

Thanks for clearing all this up, Krust.

Anytime mate

One last question: How do you rate SR that increases by lvl a la the Drow. I mean what's the ECL of a drow's SR?

Thanks.

+0.1/level of Drow.

I suppose you could just add +0.5 in total.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

Yes, a difference that your CR rules don't count... I know that a 18 and a 6 well placed are surely better than two 12. But still you can sell back attributes at 0.1 CR/point (p. 8, second column), so there isn't any difference! And then even the Attribute is important... It's quite clear that if we put the 18 in Intelligence and the 6 in STR we will make a very poor fighter!

But why would you give a Fighter an 18 Int and a Str 6?

(as a note, in the MM it's suggested that creatures should start with a base of 10 in each attr (or 11, but it doesn't change if we use only even modifiers, as suggested somewhere else)). I'm not sure how this will mix with your suggestion of using at least the "advanced" array of attributes... Perhaps you should simply have put three templates:

"base" attributes: 0 points
"advanced": 0.3 points
"elite" 1.2 points[/QUOTE]

The base array is the equivalent of 10.5 in every stat.

In this way a person can simply make an elite creature using the "elite" template (yes, I do know... this means that normally "standard" monsters have a CR of 1.2 points lower than PC, because PC are built on at least the Elite array, monsters on the base array)

They could do that anyway.

????? We where speaking of including or not including attributes in Size. It's something totally different. I was pointing out that there isn't any single table with absolute numbers (and not relative, like the one of the MM) that contains every modifier for size. I even think that, if you wanted to give "standard" attributes based on size, you should have used the table of page 295 (MM3.5)(table 5-1) (the one that gives examples of attributes for various sizes) (the funny thing is that those numbers are a little different from the values you can obtain using the "relative" table.

I think you can easily define average ability score figures from size.

Could you post your Size breakdown?

I think its:

AC Bonus: +0.1/point
Attack Bonus: +0.1/point
Reach: +/-0.1/ft above/below 5 ft
Space: -0.2/size category above medium
Ability Scores: +/-0.1/point
Speed: +/-0.1/10 ft above/below 30 ft

(I'm building an Excel spreadsheet to calculate CR... It's quite beautiful)

Great News.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Wulf mate!

Oh, these damned ability scores!

Tell me about 'em!

All ability scores SHOULD be rated-- or, at the least, the mechanic for rating them should be there. The purpose is not to have them there to "penalize" players with ECL. It's simple enough for the DM to just say, "1 Character Level = 1 CR" and leave it at that-- but that would be the exception to the "hard math" rules provided. That's just a short-cut the DM can make, knowing that it's math in the players' favor-- and that's fine.

But that's not the whole story, and it strips a lot of the utility away from UK's system.

As I see it there are two possibilities. Either you rate ability scores exactly for everything including PC ECL or you do it my way.

1) The DM can look at his players' Ability Scores to calculate their "true" CR in order to challenge them appropriately. This works for both above average and below average scores.

Dangerous business that though. Really will slow you down.

2) The DM needs to be able to create "elite" monsters (how about a smarter or wiser ogre?) and he needs to know how an arbitrary increase in ability scores will affect CR. The definition of "arbitrary" here is an ability score that is increased NOT as a result of: increased HD (+1 per 4 HD), Size (Str, Con increases, Dex decreases as a function of size), or any of the other "template" type factors that UK has already provided. The +0.1 per +1 ability works fine here.

Thank you.

Regarding the "Design Parameters" section where UK makes certain recommendations for outsiders and other "supernatural" creatures, I think I am reading (or, for certain, intending to implement) that differently. I read the Design Parameters as guidelines for where the ability scores should fall-- but they are NOT freebies. I may very well agree that Outsiders should have an elite array as a baseline-- but they should PAY for that elite array, because those ability scores WILL raise the CR of that creature.

I think we can cut the monsters some slack within the parameters of a PCs own character creation dice rolling (45 points).

Personally I wouldn't bother rating the base ability scores including my design parameters for Ability Scores by HD unless they were something utterly ridiculous.

I don't particularly care if the Size template includes or does not include ability score (or natural armor) increases or not. However, whatever each size category DOES include should definitely be broken out for the user to see.

Okey dokey.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I didn't rate them, same as I wouldn't have rated a PC with the same scores.

But the doppelganger would always have higher stats than a pc with equal base scores.

Thats correct. Remember with Troll Traits you are essentially rolling up a PC then applying the Troll Traits. With +12 bonuses to both STR and CON you could easily end up with a character with both scores in the high 20s!

Yes. But it is difficult to judge from your list of CRs what factors have been included and which that haven't. So one has to doublecheck, especially when it comes to ECL.

All modifiers to ability scores that are not luck (or within the parameters of PC luck from starting ability scores are rated).

Does this mean that you wouldn't rate a +6 modifier for a medium size monster, since this is well within the luck range of a PC?
I don't understand.

Just like some PCs have high ability scores, some have lower scores.

I don't get your meaning.

You can use them, but they won't be as accurate as they would specifically determining the monsters Traits - which is effectively a Template.

So it is adviceable to doublecheck if using a monster as a character?

+0.1/level of Drow.

I suppose you could just add +0.5 in total.

Please elaborate. If using a average, shouldn't it be +1 CR for 10 lvls then?

See ya.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Dangerous business that though. Really will slow you down..

Nah. The "luck factor" of a PCs ability scores only happens ONCE, at character creation. Beyond that, all ability increases should be attributable to level advances and equipment, neh? It's not as if I have to constantly recalculate on the fly.

So if I know immediately after character creation that Jimmy the Fighter has above average scores (say, +1.2) then I can figure on that same increase forever. I know that his CR will always be 1.2 + Level + Equipment.

I can do the same thing across the whole party. If the whole party of four characters is similarly above average, I'll make sure that the monsters I throw at them are Total Party Level +4.8 CR per encounter, if I want to keep the PCs appropriately challenged.


Wulf

 

[seasong]

Lich seems to be off a bit - the lowest ECL lich possible is ECL 18, with an effective undead HD vs turning of 15. At the very minimum, turn resistance should be upped for the lich, so he has the vaguest possibility of surviving an encounter with a similar ECL cleric.

On top of that, however... the lich, at +4 ECL, gives up two levels worth of spells for a few extra abilities. At +7 ECL, it's no longer even vaguely worth it. It would be like a wizard reaching 11th level and saying, "You know? I've done about all I want to with magic. I think I'll spend the next 7 levels as a Fighter!"... except that the wizard/fighter would get more hit points. And an improved BAB. And 4 fighter feats .

The problem, I think, is that the lich has quite a few low-power abilities, and no high-power abilities at all - the result is a creature who, at +7 ECL, isn't quite good enough at anything (but who, at +4 ECL, has a few more options than it probably should).

-seasong