D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[kreynolds]

No. Its a moderate challenge for a party of 108th-level characters. Its a difficult (50/50) challenge for a party of 54th-level characters and its a near impossible fight for a party of 27th-level characters.

Then I'm confused. The PEL of a 27th-level party is 27. The EL of a CR 108 creature is 27. I thought you match PEL with EL? If not, what's the purpose of PEL vs. EL?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

Such cases demand neither your rules, nor mass combat rules. That's not rules, that's story.

Thats crazy talk dude!

I'd rather my GM sum up it up just like that ("Thrin hacks his way through the entire army, and now faces the commander...") than force me to make 10,000 attack rolls to prove a foregone conclusion.

...but it wasn't a forgone conclusion, thats the thing, there was a very real chance of Thrin being beaten - he may have been a min/maxed power gamers wet dream bad mama-jamma but S'mon is a killer-DM* make no mistake about that. In fact Thrin was borne out of the lethal melting pot of S'mons campaign where characters dropped like flies (all the more lethal considering one of the players was machiavellian to say the least) and you really had to learn the rules and use them to your advantage just to survive a session.

*none of this namby pamby DMs screen nonsense, all dice in the open and if you are dead, better luck next time.

When you have lost half a dozen characters in as many weeks it really does steele you to do better (especially if you are a competitive person like me).

 

[kreynolds]

EL 27 = fifteen 27th-level characters

That's not what v4 of your doc says, and that's what I'm going by. It says to total up the levels and divide by the number of members in the party. 27*4/4=27, and 27*5/5=27. What did I miss?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Then I'm confused.

Thats why I'm here.

The PEL of a 27th-level party is 27.

Wrong.

Page 16 under Party Level.

Party Level = Total Character Levels divided by # of characters.

Page 16 under Party Encounter Level.

PEL = Party Level (see above) modified by Table 2-1; then modified by Table 2-5.

Four 27th-level characters = CR 108 total divided by four = Party Level CR 27.

(Table 2-1) CR 27 = EL 20 (Table 2-5) = PEL 20

Therefore a 108th-level character (EL 27) is an EL +7 encounter for a party of four 27th-level characters.

All that said, the new EL rules are much simpler (theres no PEL anymore) so you should have less trouble getting to grips with it.

The EL of a CR 108 creature is 27.

Correct.

I thought you match PEL with EL? If not, what's the purpose of PEL vs. EL?

When PEL matches EL then you have a moderate encounter.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate !

That's not what v4 of your doc says,

A possible confusion is that I am trying to correct your assessments of v4, while at the same time responding with elements of v4.1.

and that's what I'm going by.

Nevertheless you were incorrect with regards v4.

It says to total up the levels and divide by the number of members in the party. 27*4/4=27, and 27*5/5=27. What did I miss?

I think I explained all this in my previous post (?); which no doubt I was in the process of typing out when you posted this.

Let me know if you are still uncertain?

 

[kreynolds]

Thats why I'm here.

And I thank you for that.

A possible confusion is that I am trying to correct your assessments of v4, while at the same time responding with elements of v4.1.

At this point, I'm remembering why I didn't like this part of the system, so I'll just wait for the new version.

Let me know if you are still uncertain?

I'll wait. The current incarnation is way too much trouble to bother with when there's a more streamlined rule-set coming soon.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

No he doesn't. Stop confusing people!

Have you forgotten your new rules already!? Remember you have to reduce EL for character numbers.

Four 27th-level characters (total CR 108 = EL 27, -4 EL (four characters) = EL 23).

Four 27th-level characters are vastly overpowered.
Four 54th-level characters would be a match.
Four 108th-level characters see the Hecaontchiere as a moderate challenge

Errr... crap.

I told you, I am not to be trusted around complicated math at the moment.

Part of the problem is that I am a rat-bastard DM. I consider 50/50 as "moderate."


Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Incidently in Wulfs new EL system PEL is scrapped altogether, its a much simpler system, its really starting to grow on me.

I wish I'd seen this thread sooner.

Self-deprecating comments about my math aside, I'm an excellent design "catalyst." Inspiration is not my forte, but I can generally find improvements. That's why I love Open Gaming so much.

And oh, is this a work of inspiration, UK. You should be proud. I am awed by it.

I found PEL to be very confusing in your document, and started looking for a simpler expression. I tend to think of CR as a "hard" assessment of a creature's combat effectiveness (just a total of factors), and EL as a "soft" assessment of relative combat effectiveness (as the number of CR factors increases, their relative effect on combat is diminished). In my mind, I usually say, "Effective Level" rather than "Encounter Level."

And it doesn't matter whether the lens is poised over a group of monsters or a group of PCs-- CR is CR and EL is EL.

Sorry about confusing folks earlier. I'll leave the answers to UK now.


Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I wish I'd seen this thread sooner.

Better late than never!

Self-deprecating comments about my math aside, I'm an excellent design "catalyst." Inspiration is not my forte, but I can generally find improvements. That's why I love Open Gaming so much.

And oh, is this a work of inspiration, UK. You should be proud. I am awed by it.

The best design is always born out of necessity.

I found PEL to be very confusing in your document, and started looking for a simpler expression. I tend to think of CR as a "hard" assessment of a creature's combat effectiveness (just a total of factors), and EL as a "soft" assessment of relative combat effectiveness (as the number of CR factors increases, their relative effect on combat is diminished). In my mind, I usually say, "Effective Level" rather than "Encounter Level."

And it doesn't matter whether the lens is poised over a group of monsters or a group of PCs-- CR is CR and EL is EL.

I think the problem my end was that I was still trying to parallel as much of WotCs rules as possible instead of listening to the greatest authority on the subject.

Sorry about confusing folks earlier. I'll leave the answers to UK now.

I appreciate the confidence dude!

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Wealth

Can't believe this thread was hiding on p. 2 of the board...

Anyway - Hi Krust, I'm bringing back an old horse so we can beat it once again:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Sorcica
And speaking of treasure. What the hell is going on with the wealth?! According to the DMG, a 10th lvl character should have 49.000 gp worth of treasure. According to your system he should have 100.000 gp! That's just ridiculous!

Sorry. No offense intended. But I think this is a major rewrite of the core rules to fit your system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Either use my system for wealth or use their system for wealth as long as you stick to one or the other you shouldn't have a problem.

My method, certainly works much better at epic levels and gives you a mechanic to play with; whereas the official rules merely give you an arbitrary figure.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Sorcica
It will make it hard to use published adventures as the treasure there is (rightly) based on the values in the DMG.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Like I said, as long as you are consistent it shouldn't matter what system you use for wealth.

Now, is this really correct?
By your system, a mid lvl party will be more powerful than a core mid lvl party, simply because they have way more and/or better equipment. So the party by your system have a better chance against creatures of a certain CR than a core party.

Also, like I've said, it's hard to use published adventures as is, if using your system. The treasure gained will be inadequate (sp?).

I've been thinking about it, and I don't feel one can just use one system or the other like you propose. There will be a difference in the party's AC, Attack bonus etc. that's to big to ignore.

I think your system should take over from epic lvls, where is works just fine as far as I can tell. But for lvls 1-20, use WotC's system or make modifications to your own.