D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[kreynolds]

I think your system should take over from epic lvls, where is works just fine as far as I can tell. But for lvls 1-20, use WotC's system or make modifications to your own.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Can't believe this thread was hiding on p. 2 of the board...

Anyway - Hi Krust, I'm bringing back an old horse so we can beat it once again:

Now, is this really correct?
By your system, a mid lvl party will be more powerful than a core mid lvl party, simply because they have way more and/or better equipment. So the party by your system have a better chance against creatures of a certain CR than a core party.

Also, like I've said, it's hard to use published adventures as is, if using your system. The treasure gained will be inadequate (sp?).

I've been thinking about it, and I don't feel one can just use one system or the other like you propose. There will be a difference in the party's AC, Attack bonus etc. that's to big to ignore.

I think your system should take over from epic lvls, where is works just fine as far as I can tell. But for lvls 1-20, use WotC's system or make modifications to your own.

Well you could do that too if you want.

In 4.1 I actually have a PC wealth/NPC Wealth/Treasure Table using my method. So people will be able to see that at a glance and judge for themselves.

 

[Halivar]

By your system, a mid lvl party will be more powerful than a core mid lvl party, simply because they have way more and/or better equipment. So the party by your system have a better chance against creatures of a certain CR than a core party.

When I take a PC from 1st to 10th, I generally have far in excess of what the DMG suggests is "starting gold" for a 10th level player. I'm willing to bet most others do, too.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

When I take a PC from 1st to 10th, I generally have far in excess of what the DMG suggests is "starting gold" for a 10th level player. I'm willing to bet most others do, too.

Ah, but that is your campaign and your style. The problem here is that U_K's method is actually a rule that gives more power to PCs at certain lvls than PCs going by the core rules.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Well you could do that too if you want.

In 4.1 I actually have a PC wealth/NPC Wealth/Treasure Table using my method. So people will be able to see that at a glance and judge for themselves.

I'm sorry, that's just not good enough, IMO.

1. If I take my 10th lvl character from my campaign and put in your 10th lvl campaign, all the others will have double the equipment I do. Therefore, my CR 10 isn't equal to their CR 10.

One of the purposes of the entire CR system was, as far as I understand it, to accurately determine the power of a given creature, in relation to others.
Right?
This inconsistency with core rules break the system at mid lvls.

2. It is nice that you provide wealth and treasure tables in v4.1, but that really doesn't solve the problem that published adventures will need some work if the treasures shall be up to par.
If the characters are running around in Nightfang Spire, I want to be able to pass out the treasure listed without having to look up the new treasure for that CR and find the value of the listed treasure and add more and look that value up etc. At that point, a lot of the advantage in using a premade adventure becomes moot.

I still suggest using my method. And like I said, I don't think one can just use one or the other. At 10th lvl the Krusty PCs will have double the equipment core PCs got.

So what do you think?

 

[Halivar]

One of the purposes of the entire CR system was, as far as I understand it, to accurately determine the power of a given creature, in relation to others.
Right?
This inconsistency with core rules break the system at mid lvls.

One of the fundamental presuppositions of this new CR system is that the core rules are themselves not internally consistent, and that CR ratings do not accurately reflect acceptable difficulty at a given level.

Having said that, it's not too much of a stretch to house rule that other parts (say, starting gold for PC's) are also inconsistent with this and arbitrarily pick another value, whether higher or lower. That's not necessarily breaking the game; it's just changing the mechanics (i.e. how quickly people level, for one thing).

In the end, I never saw the CR system as a monolithic all-or-nothing system. It seems more like a collection of house rules that you can take or leave.

For my group, and our style of play, a higher starting gold chart is pretty nice.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

One of the fundamental presuppositions of this new CR system is that the core rules are themselves not internally consistent, and that CR ratings do not accurately reflect acceptable difficulty at a given level.

Having said that, it's not too much of a stretch to house rule that other parts (say, starting gold for PC's) are also inconsistent with this and arbitrarily pick another value, whether higher or lower. That's not necessarily breaking the game; it's just changing the mechanics (i.e. how quickly people level, for one thing).

In the end, I never saw the CR system as a monolithic all-or-nothing system. It seems more like a collection of house rules that you can take or leave.

For my group, and our style of play, a higher starting gold chart is pretty nice.

Good points.

Still, the problem of comparison of characters' power between campaigns and the problems of treasure listed in published adventures remain.

 

[Halivar]

Still, the problem of comparison of characters' power between campaigns and the problems of treasure listed in published adventures remain.

That's granted. I think this CR revision as a whole throws most published adventures off kilter.

For one thing, EL's may be too high or too low, and may require tweaking.

As for treasure, one will have to roll for more treasure if they are using a "share-the-wealth" reward system and wish to sustain it through a published adventure.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

I'm sorry, that's just not good enough, IMO.

1. If I take my 10th lvl character from my campaign and put in your 10th lvl campaign, all the others will have double the equipment I do. Therefore, my CR 10 isn't equal to their CR 10.

I can't imagine such crossovers are everyday events, and even then only require minimum adjustment if at all, and you are taking the greatest disparity and even then its only a difference of about 0.4!

Not exactly cause for concern I feel, though of course I appreciate your opinions mate.

One of the purposes of the entire CR system was, as far as I understand it, to accurately determine the power of a given creature, in relation to others. Right? This inconsistency with core rules break the system at mid lvls.

But (as Halivar was nice enough to point out) the core rules themselves are not internally consistent.

2. It is nice that you provide wealth and treasure tables in v4.1, but that really doesn't solve the problem that published adventures will need some work if the treasures shall be up to par.

If the characters are running around in Nightfang Spire, I want to be able to pass out the treasure listed without having to look up the new treasure for that CR and find the value of the listed treasure and add more and look that value up etc. At that point, a lot of the advantage in using a premade adventure becomes moot.

I still suggest using my method. And like I said, I don't think one can just use one or the other. At 10th lvl the Krusty PCs will have double the equipment core PCs got.

So what do you think?

I still don't see this as a major problem. I really think this as a DMs decision (as with core racial ability traits).

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I'm NOT giving up!

I can't imagine such crossovers are everyday events, and even then only require minimum adjustment if at all, and you are taking the greatest disparity and even then its only a difference of about 0.4!

This doesn't solve the problem, it only makes it worse. Since the CR adjustment is only 0.4 it is almost garantied that the two PCs will be the same lvl (anything else equal). But one PC has double the equipmnet of the other.

Now, I know this is rare occurencies and all and only needs small adjustments, but there should at least be some note that mid lvl characters will tend to have more wealth.

Not exactly cause for concern I feel, though of course I appreciate your opinions mate.

No offense taken It's just that I don't feel that one can just choose to use core rules wealth or your system. If using the core rules PCs at certain lvls will have less equipment that you assume, and therefore certain monsters will be a bigger challenge than their CR indicate. If using your system mid lvl characters will be more powerful than their core rules counterparts.
That's my point.

But (as Halivar was nice enough to point out) the core rules themselves are not internally consistent.

No? Up to lvl 20 at least (where the problem with too high wealth ends and your system should take over, IMO) there is no inconsistency. You have a table telling how much wealth a PC or NPC or a given lvl should have. Voila!

I still don't see this as a major problem. I really think this as a DMs decision (as with core racial ability traits).

Maybe it's not a big problem, but if it's a problem at all, it needs addressing (sp?).