D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Yair]

Come on guys, can't you see all this CR-talk is delaying the IH? Shame on you!

Don't kill me if this has been beaten to death before, but shouldn't hp affect CR? That is to say, what is the CR of a maximum-hp versus a minimum-hp creature with the same HD (and Con etc.)?
This is essentially the same problem with the aforementioned ability scores - they are supposed to be determined randomly, are ignored in WotC CR calculations, but there is a LOT of difference between a 10 hp and a 120 hp opponent - even though both may be otherwise identical 10d12 creatures.

I believe the proper way to deal with these issues is to not normally take these factors into account, but note explicitly that you assume the standard array and average hit points, and present the means to calculate their affect for those interesting in doing so. Perhaps in 'templates' too, like 'Elite Array' or 'Maximum Hit Points'.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Come on guys, can't you see all this CR-talk is delaying the IH? Shame on you!

Don't kill me if this has been beaten to death before, but shouldn't hp affect CR? That is to say, what is the CR of a maximum-hp versus a minimum-hp creature with the same HD (and Con etc.)?
This is essentially the same problem with the aforementioned ability scores - they are supposed to be determined randomly, are ignored in WotC CR calculations, but there is a LOT of difference between a 10 hp and a 120 hp opponent - even though both may be otherwise identical 10d12 creatures.

I believe the proper way to deal with these issues is to not normally take these factors into account, but note explicitly that you assume the standard array and average hit points, and present the means to calculate their affect for those interesting in doing so. Perhaps in 'templates' too, like 'Elite Array' or 'Maximum Hit Points'.

I think that Krust once told me that max hp is equal to +7 Con on average, i.e. +0.7 CR, but since it's not as good as a +7 Con it should only be about +0.5 CR (that's what I use anyway).
Extrapolating that, you could say that very low hp is worth -0.5 CR.

 

[Kavon]

If you want the best detail, calculate for every individual HP the creature has.
1 HP = ~0.03 CR (1/30th, so the 3 goes on forever)
The HD the creatures have goes from the assumption that the creature will have average rolls (i.e. 6.5 on a d12, which makes for slightly over 0.2 CR). If the creature doesn't get to have the average, but a custom total (like the maximum or minimum of a roll), just multiply that total by 0.03 (excluding the Con bonus for HD of course).

This is how I'd do it though

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

I'm NOT giving up!

I'm very happy for you.

This doesn't solve the problem, it only makes it worse. Since the CR adjustment is only 0.4 it is almost garantied that the two PCs will be the same lvl (anything else equal). But one PC has double the equipmnet of the other.

The only way this is likely to happen (in actuality) is if you roll up two characters on the spot using the different rules.

Theres no way a DM can accurately predict who is going to have what equipment as leveling is a free form process (with regards wealth).

Also I think you are failing to take account of just what a 0.4 difference is at 10th-level anyway...thats 4% you know. The only people who can see alarm bells here are you and Don Quixote!

Now, I know this is rare occurencies and all and only needs small adjustments, but there should at least be some note that mid lvl characters will tend to have more wealth.

I thought I already had a note...?

Maybe thats 4.1 I'm thinking of.

No offense taken It's just that I don't feel that one can just choose to use core rules wealth or your system. If using the core rules PCs at certain lvls will have less equipment that you assume, and therefore certain monsters will be a bigger challenge than their CR indicate. If using your system mid lvl characters will be more powerful than their core rules counterparts.
That's my point.

Yes but the difference is negligable.

No? Up to lvl 20 at least (where the problem with too high wealth ends and your system should take over, IMO) there is no inconsistency. You have a table telling how much wealth a PC or NPC or a given lvl should have. Voila!

Well if theres no inconsistency in core wealth then show me the equation they use to determine PC and NPC wealth?

Maybe it's not a big problem, but if it's a problem at all, it needs addressing (sp?).

Addressed and then swiftly moved on from.

addressing (sp?).

Correct.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Yair mate!

Come on guys, can't you see all this CR-talk is delaying the IH? Shame on you!

Hopefully not for much longer. I have been busy with other things these past five or six days, now hopefully I can finish these revisions tomorrow.

Don't kill me if this has been beaten to death before, but shouldn't hp affect CR? That is to say, what is the CR of a maximum-hp versus a minimum-hp creature with the same HD (and Con etc.)?
This is essentially the same problem with the aforementioned ability scores - they are supposed to be determined randomly, are ignored in WotC CR calculations, but there is a LOT of difference between a 10 hp and a 120 hp opponent - even though both may be otherwise identical 10d12 creatures.

I believe the proper way to deal with these issues is to not normally take these factors into account, but note explicitly that you assume the standard array and average hit points, and present the means to calculate their affect for those interesting in doing so. Perhaps in 'templates' too, like 'Elite Array' or 'Maximum Hit Points'.

I think Sorcica was already nice enough to reply to this one (thanks matey).

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hopefully not for much longer. I have been busy with other things these past five or six days, now hopefully I can finish these revisions tomorrow.

Do you still need monsters L-O done or has that been taken care of? Otherwise, I'll have them for you sometime Thursday.

I think Sorcica was already nice enough to reply to this one (thanks matey).

You're welcome

And I'm not going to nag about the wealth anymore. How's that for favors?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Do you still need monsters L-O done or has that been taken care of? Otherwise, I'll have them for you sometime Thursday.

I still need everything done at this stage (that hasn't already been volunteered), though I will do the letter 'D' myself.

You're welcome

Thanks mate.

And I'm not going to nag about the wealth anymore. How's that for favors?

Probably for the best, I don't feel in the mood to get drawn into subjective arguments on the minutiae of this CR/EL system.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Sorcica confused

Hi Krust!

I was designing an encounter and in the process got a bit confused. I hope you can help me out and explain what (if anything) I'm doing wrong.

Okay, the encounter is a 13th lvl vampire wizard. Since he's a real baddie, he has PC equipment.

I won't be using the silver rule, therefore 1 lvl = +1 CR straight, right?

So he's CR 13 + 7.075 (vampire) = CR 20.075. So far, so good.

Now for the golden rule, which is still to be applied, since the guy's not a PC.

Value of wizard HD: 1 - 0.2 (wealth) - 0.44 (spellcasting) - 0.05 (bonus feats) = CR 0.31

13 * 0.31 = 4,03

Golden rule 20.075 - 8.06 = 12.015 (divide by 2) = 6.0075 + 8.06 = 14.0675 = CR 14.

So this guy gets +1 CR for being vampire or what?

If my mistake is that the wizard really is 1.23/lvl, then one really can't use step 1 in v.4 that states that 1 PC lvl = 0.8 CR.
BTW, using 1.23 would make him CR 18 (and CR 15 with the silver rule).

Is this something that's a bug in applying templates to class-based creatures or is it no problem at all?

Edit: Or is the problem that the golden rule should not be applied to class lvls? Seems like this, otherwise all the classes will be more or less screwed up.

So maybe it should be CR 13 and then account for the golden rule by only applying half the vampire's CR modifier (which would make him CR 16)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Krust!

Hiya mate!

I was designing an encounter and in the process got a bit confused. I hope you can help me out and explain what (if anything) I'm doing wrong.

Yeah I scanned over this post and I already see your mistake.

Okay, the encounter is a 13th lvl vampire wizard. Since he's a real baddie, he has PC equipment.

Okay.

I won't be using the silver rule, therefore 1 lvl = +1 CR straight, right?

For the levels themselves you don't need the Silver Rule correct. You would use it for the Template though.

So he's CR 13 + 7.075 (vampire) = CR 20.075. So far, so good.

Yep.

Now for the golden rule, which is still to be applied, since the guy's not a PC.

Value of wizard HD: 1 - 0.2 (wealth) - 0.44 (spellcasting) - 0.05 (bonus feats) = CR 0.31

13 * 0.31 = 4,03

Thats your mistake right there. Don't fracture class levels when using the Golden Rule. Simply take the HD as +0.8.

Remember even Monster HD is made up of more than simply hit points (BAB, Saves, SKills etc.)

13*0.8 = 10.4

Therefore there is no Golden Rule.

Golden rule 20.075 - 8.06 = 12.015 (divide by 2) = 6.0075 + 8.06 = 14.0675 = CR 14.

So this guy gets +1 CR for being vampire or what?

No he gets +6.

Apply the Silver Rule to the Vampire Template.

7.075*0.85 = +6.01375

If my mistake is that the wizard really is 1.23/lvl, then one really can't use step 1 in v.4 that states that 1 PC lvl = 0.8 CR.
BTW, using 1.23 would make him CR 18 (and CR 15 with the silver rule).

Is this something that's a bug in applying templates to class-based creatures or is it no problem at all?

Edit: Or is the problem that the golden rule should not be applied to class lvls? Seems like this, otherwise all the classes will be more or less screwed up.

So maybe it should be CR 13 and then account for the golden rule by only applying half the vampire's CR modifier (which would make him CR 16)?

I hope I have it explained well enough above...?

The Vampire should be CR 19.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I hope I have it explained well enough above...?

The Vampire should be CR 19.

Understood. Thanks