D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[CRGreathouse]

No I mean f(x) = ax^2

Then f(2x)= a(2x)^2=a*4*x^2=4ax^2=4f(x)

Oh. The first time you said f(2x)=2f(x), which as I mentioned won't hold in general for any quadratic. Obviously f(2x)=4f(x) holds for any quadratic without linear or constant terms.

The question is, why do you want this relationship to hold? The standard function for XP is exponential, not quadratic.

 

[Cheiromancer]

The question is, why do you want this relationship to hold? The standard function for XP is exponential, not quadratic.

Because, according to Upper Krust's charts (table 2-1), doubling the CR of a creature increases the EL by +4 and increasing EL by +4 quadruples the experience awarded (table 2-8).

For example (from table 2-1)

CR      EL
1       1
2       5
4       9
8       13
16      17
32      21
64      25
128     29
etc.

and

CR      EL
3       7
6       11
12      15
24      19
48      23
96      27
etc.

And similarly for CRs of 5, 10, 20, 40; doubling CR increases the EL by +4.

From table 2-8 you see the following:

EL Difference        XP awarded
PEL -8               Party Level x 18.75
PEL -4               Party Level x 75
PEL +/-0             Party Level x 300
PEL +4               Party Level x 1200
PEL +8               Party level x 4800

and

EL Difference        XP awarded
PEL -7               Party Level x 25
PEL -3               Party Level x 100
PEL +1               Party Level x 400
PEL +5               Party Level x 1600

and so on, for differences of EL of -6 and -5; every +4 to the EL of an encounter quadruples the XP awarded.

From these two facts (doubling CR increases EL by +4; increasing EL by +4 quadruples awarded XP) we can conclude that doubling CR quadruples XP. Hence the relationship between XP and CR is quadratic.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Level 30: 2 700 000 XP (100*30^3)
Level 31: 2 979 000 XP (100*31^3)

XP for a CR 128 (EL 29) monster: 1 228 800 (75*128^2)

Is this as intended?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Yes, that's correct.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Yes, that's correct.

So a PEL 30 group taking on an EL 29 challenge levels about twice?

 

[Cheiromancer]

A 30th level group is EL 20.

As given on page 16 of the PDF,

Party Level: To determine Party Level simply total all character levels (or ECLs in the event of templates etc.) and divide by the number of characters. eg. 20th-level Rogue; 20th-level Wizard; 15th-level Monk Half-Dragon (ECL 19) and an 18th-level Cleric = Party Level 19 (77 ÷ 4)

Once you know the Party Level apply the result to Table 2-1 to determine the Encounter Level. Then modify that by the number of characters in the party as shown in Table 2-5.

The modifier for a party with 4-5 characters is +/- 0.

Table 2-1 matches a CR of 30 to an EL of 20.

Experience for an encounter of PEL +9 is 6,400 x party level = 192,000 or 48,000 xp per person. Since they need 30,000 xp in the core rules to advance from level 30 to level 31, they too will advance almost twice. According to the rules given in Upper Krust's pdf, at least.

Or have I misinterpreted this document?

 

[Cheiromancer]

A certain Egyptian Death God has posted in my other thread, here, and has suggested a way of calculating XP which does not change the core rules level/XP progression.

His formula is

XP = [(CR/LV)^2]*LV*300/#Members

My response was to rearrange his formula to the folowing (equivalent) form:

XP = (CR^2)*300/(LV*#Members)

Since the average level of the party multiplied by the number of members in the party is just the total levels of the party, you could write this-

XP = (CR^2)*300/TLV

TLV being the sum of the levels (and LAs) of each of the party members. You could calculate the value of (CR^2)*300 for each monster and divide by the total levels of the party; that would give the XP for each character.

A sequence of CR 10 encounters against a level 10 party (TLV = 40) will yield 750 xp per encounter per person, so 13.3333 of them will be enough to get them each to 11th level.

 

[Burne]

Howdy Upper Krust, I have a few questions about your v4 CR system.

<hmmm> Adobe Reader isn't loving me, so I can't get a correct example value out of your pdf at this time.

Under Wotc rules when playing a +LA race, your ECL determines your starting cash (ie a Thri-keen has 2 Racial HD and an LA of 2, according to Wotc a Thri-Keen Rogue 1 would be a fine member of a 5th level party and would have 5th level starting cash), the same situation under UK rules isn't as clear. How much cash would said example Thri-keen start with? What if the party was a 4th level party and the Thri-keen had no class levels?

Next question is related to the above. One of my players is interested in playing a Dragon in a upper level one-shot, and due to the half/two-thirds dragon weirdness I have no idea what CR of dragon would work. Would a UK-CR 15 dragon fit well with a 15th level party? As above question, should said dragon receive any equipment? Does the answer to either question change if you have a UKCR13 Dragon with 2 PC class levels?

In all cases, I'm using the Silver Rule rounded CR.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

How much cash would said example Thri-keen start with? What if the party was a 4th level party and the Thri-keen had no class levels?

I don't have the pdf here, so I don't know what CR a Thri-Keen is. But, a PC has wealth equal to his CR, as 1 CR = 1 PC lvl. So, if the Thri-Keen is CR 4 (just as an example), he would need 4 lvls of wealth, which would add 0.8 CR for a total of 4.8 CR. Since you round down in U_K's system and with the silver rule and all, he fits in just fine with a 4th lvl party.

Next question is related to the above. One of my players is interested in playing a Dragon in a upper level one-shot, and due to the half/two-thirds dragon weirdness I have no idea what CR of dragon would work. Would a UK-CR 15 dragon fit well with a 15th level party?

Ignore the two-thirds weirdness. That's just if you want to use U_K's system with the core EL system.
The dragon would have a CR of 15 + (15*0.2) = CR 18. You will then have to add +0.6 CR for the last 3 lvls, for total CR 18.6. (a better formula is CR * 1.24 = CR with equipment). The dragon would be a higher ECL (before silver rule, mind you) than the party, as CR = ECL.

As above question, should said dragon receive any equipment? Does the answer to either question change if you have a UKCR13 Dragon with 2 PC class levels?

No. That would still be CR 15 = a 15th lvl character. CR equals ECL in U_K's system.
What you do, is that you basically 'add' wealth to a creature (or NPC and PC) after determining CR. With PC classes, the wealth is just already calculated into the 1 lvl = 1 CR assumption.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Apologies for my absence.

Hello to Byrne.

Thanks to Sorcica for helping me out.

Lately I just haven't been able to visualise the whole CR stuff, perhaps I'm too engaged by the Immortals Handbook to wrap my head around something this technical on the spur of the moment. But its good to see even in my temporary absence there are people able and willing to wield the power of the CR/EL system.