Value of a copper piece

Loonook

First Post
thanks to [MENTION=1861]Loonook[/MENTION] for doing a ton of research. Folks may not reach the same conclusion as him, but I suspect he now knows more about the subject than most of us.

Here's some thoughts:
if we're looking at money as compared to what poor D&D peasants make to poor people in the US, don't compare to minimum wage. The majority of people making minimum wage (officially) are high school kids. Most adults are making more than that, which is why political discussions about raising the minimum wage are moot.

A better comparison to modern americans are migrant workers (who are NOT making minimum wage) or people who are completely dependent on government assistance (welfare). Political exageration asside about poor people with fancy cars (as in fraud), real poor people getting welfare checks and food stamps are getting less than minimum wage equivalency.

Basically, if we imagine that 1/sp a day being the lowest paying job AND having to survive on it, what's the worst living conditions to compare to where somebody is getting money, is surviving, but not doing well at all.


Nextly, consider what all this thinking about economics is for. While [MENTION=6670763]Yora[/MENTION] had a point that a PC isn't really going to notice 3cp missing from his pouch, the observation that poor NPCs can't be handing out 5gp swords or even 100gp rewards.

Additionally, PCs riding into town are going to look like easy pickings to such poor people. Even a 1st level PC before he's left for his first dungeon is toting a lot of expensive gear, compared to what the paupers have.

there's been other threads on the topic, including ones where we calculated how much D&D money you need to make to afford to eat and sleep based on prices from the PH.

I believe the objective of any such effort should be:
  • don't overcomplicate things or fret about that which the PCs won't notice anyway
  • Come up with the simplest resolution/fewest changes
  • Focus more on preventing abuse, than anything else

From that, I would consider that:
  • it would be a lot of work to shift the economy down to silver/coppers being important to PCs
  • it would be unfun to have every poor NPC be highly motivated to rob the PCs
  • poor NPCs and commodity prices are out of scale with the GP economy that PCs and rich NPCs live in


A simple fix MIGHT be to simply upgrade the pay for NPCs from SP/day to GP/day. A regular working making 1GP a day isn't so envious of your 30GP weapon. One could surmise that the very poor (homeless, etc) are making less than 1GP/day, but regular people are "fine".

By bringing the day's wages to 1 GP/day for unskilled labor you need to then advance the pricing of other common jobs and the cost of equipment.

If our Smith from above maintains the same Craft rules he is now paying 7-35 GP/day (if we figure no weekend), or 5-25 GP/day in costs.

You just crashed the efficacy of Craft for individual weapons as the system becomes cost ineffective if employing hired hands.

You've also raised all individuals in the city to Poverty rather than Self-Sufficiency.

Oh, and (if you figure based on my earlier argument around the poverty line) you have raised our 6 person family to a level of prosperity unheard of in the Medieval World.

The economic model, beside spellcasting and the occasional third party material, really does hang well... The Adventurer really does not screw with the economy of a city large enough for them to get proper interaction at their level... And even in smaller cities and towns the PCs are not really throwing anything off kilter through their actions.

The best way to go about it is to think that the PCs operate in a kind of economic status. They are individuals who provide their own equipment, make far more money in their short life periods than an average individual, and can use that money in a lot of ways.

PCs are mercenaries. [US Figures ahead] Do you know that the average in-country pay for mercenaries in current conflicts with 5 years of honorable duty is around $600/day? A Sergeant (E-5) at that same time in the Service clears $88/day, before all factors [fire pay, various pay increases due to family, etc].

Now a Soldier in D&D (War 1) makes 6 GP/mo/lvl for his basic rate... but an Adventurer with class levels gains 30 GP/mo/lvl.

The basic rates for comparison are about right. I'm just saying that the current rates would go up to 6 PP/mo/lvl and 30 pp/mo/lvl, and we start getting into some issues :).

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

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Janx

Hero
...stuff...
The economic model, beside spellcasting and the occasional third party material, really does hang well... The Adventurer really does not screw with the economy of a city large enough for them to get proper interaction at their level... And even in smaller cities and towns the PCs are not really throwing anything off kilter through their actions.

you've sold me on not changing the pay rate.

I think the last problem is the crime-temptation of a small village whacking the PCs while they sleep and taking their stuff because the 100+GP worth of loot they carry is worth so much to them (pretty much all the evaluations show that the starting cash a PC gets is significant to a poor person, ceteris paribus.

One way to rein in rampant PC-jacking is to emphasize the law enforcement angle. PCs are like rich/noble people. The local nobles cannot afford to have the poor people getting the idea that they can whack a rich person and take their stuff. Once you start whacking PCs, it's a short mental hop to do the same to the local nobles. So on report of any such theft, the local police would take it seriously, and given a lack of search and detention protection laws, they probably could search a village quickly and find the stolen goods before they could be sold.

the main deterrant is the likelyhood of getting caught, rather than the punishment from being caught. A small village is not going to have the means to pawn off stolen hi-tech gear (compared to what a village normally has), so they have to hide it or send it out to be sold, in which case, the villager who is missing in the morning is the guy who's running to the city to pawn it. So a search or a headcount will pretty much solve the mystery.
 

Loonook

First Post
you've sold me on not changing the pay rate.

I think the last problem is the crime-temptation of a small village whacking the PCs while they sleep and taking their stuff because the 100+GP worth of loot they carry is worth so much to them (pretty much all the evaluations show that the starting cash a PC gets is significant to a poor person, ceteris paribus.

Fear.

Yes, a group of commoners can kill low-level PCs... But how many die in the attempt? How many are going to be talked into attacking a group of well-armed and armored warriors, mages, etc.?

Remember that even in a highly magical economy your only recompense for death is worth 32 years of a common laborer's entire life savings :). The individuals are probably on a mission from a liege lord of some sort, and unless hiding their allegiances are going to be known for it.

So we have eliminated the average laborer... But what about a brigand? A band of brigands... Hrmm, let us look into that as a Platoon. I feel that 11-20 War 1 Brigands is about right, along with their command structures (2 3rd level Warriors, and a 3-6th level character). Let us max everything out and consider our Leader as a PC spellcaster, just for giggles.

Total "Wages": 336 GP. This is the wages listed in Stronghold Builder's Guide.
Total Upkeep (Poor): 276 GP.
Total Upkeep (Meager): 115 GP.

That is quite a bit of cash to be made for selling off stolen equipment, but they live well. To be able to 'break even' for it being worthwhile to steal for ALL individuals involved you need to steal around 672 GP worth of goods to sell at half price (not even getting into Fencing rules here... We'll just go half), and a 'lean month' would need to have available assets of 115 GP OR make about 230 GP worth of stolen goods.

A cart carrying 1/2 ton of grain is worth 238 GP by weight before we get it to market. If you have 2 mules pulling your cart (8 GP), the cart (15 GP), and requirements (silken rope, poles, lantern, 'walking money') we'll bring ourselves up to... 300 GP? 320?
That sells for half of the value (150-160 GP) which is a couple of weeks worth of haul.

A couple of wheat wagons during harvest time can keep you alive during the winter as a band. Merchant carts (which are going to vary widely across the line) will put more brass in pocket...

But then we have adventurers. If the 'leader' is there a nice quick Fireball clears your 1st-going-into-2nd level party off the map... They're clearing less than 1800 GP if all of your wealth is in equipment. That's a great set of wages... But there is also body disposal, explaining having this spellbook.... That sort of thing. Which is why I'm not getting into the criminal side of economics :D.

The Bandits have a payroll. If they are strictly 'just bandits' living in the woods? They have a heavy burden to seek out small targets of opportunity in the general area, and transport out the goods to markets away from their origin point.

If the bandits bump off two grain wagons a month supplemented by the occasional merchant caravan they can definitely keep themselves at at least their normal wages. But we consider bandits to be the 'high end' of things? Lots of $$$, rolling in women and +1 Daggers, drinking games using Boots of Striding and Springing for glasses...

Nope. I consider your average bandit akin to a low-level drug dealer. I linked to the opening of Chapter 3 of Freakonomics entitled "Why Do Drug Dealers Still Live with Their Moms?"... And provides some impressive statistics from Venkatesh's studies of a large-scale drug supply chain in a metropolitan region (Editing to eliminate specific drug soldier information, emphases mine).


Along with the bad pay, the foot soldiers faced terrible job conditions. . . Foot soldiers also risked arrest and, more worrisome, violence. Using the gang’s financial documents and the rest of Venkatesh’s research, it is possible to construct an adverse-events index of J. T.’s gang during the four years in question. The results are astonishingly bleak. If you were a member of J. T.’s gang for all four years, here is the typical fate you would have faced during that period:

Number of times arrested 5.9
Number of nonfatal wounds or injuries 2.4 (not including injuries meted out by the gang itself for rules violations)
Chance of being killed 1 in 4


This is just in the process of dealing drugs, without any threats of violence being necessary to the instigation of the transaction! A quarter of the gang's soldiers are killed, and the full numbers show (if I recall correctly) the data on the average time between events in the gang... Does not look good :(.

In short, the life of a bandit sounds great! Earn lots of money, bump off wagons... But who says that your leader is going to actually give you your full 'cut'? As I stated above the difference between Poor and Meager life is over 150 GP. The temptation, during good times and bad, to short the men will always be there... On average foot soldiers made 3.00/hr while the Leader cleared hundreds of thousands of dollars!

And a bandit really can't LEAVE the job outside of a pine box or mutual agreement/assured destruction. He knows too much...

The life of your bandit is pretty much hinged on making more and more raids, and more raids brings more adventurers... and better ones. Ranging across larger areas to do more hits spreads out your band, then recon, picking targets, execution... There's a lot of work for very, very little reward for our bandits unless they're hitting multiple small targets a week (the safe bet until adventurers are called), or targeting a couple of fat targets a quarter (which leads to having to sell high-priced items as you raised... And more danger).

In short: Safety is in numbers and respective power. Most bandits are going to be weak and not want to risk their lives for the best shots, and there's always top skim.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

Storminator

First Post
Reminds me of teaching my dad to play 30 something years ago. We're in the tavern getting hired by some mysterious stranger when it's time to pay the bar tab. A copper per ale! My dad looks at his character sheet and says "how many coppers are these gold pieces worth?" We tell him, and his eyes bug out. "That means we can sit here and drink for . . . the next 20 years! Why the heck are we going into a cave with goblins?!"

PS
 

marli

First Post
theres a issue between peasent and 1st level but it generally hangs together above(and below) that gap.
a commoner could afford the necklece at 50-55 gold but would have to spend all their saving, sell all thier assets and call in all thier favors and the child would most likely die of starvation after birth.
a pretty stark choice,
hit 100GP and you can forget about it.
however is it really an issue if 90% of the kids are otherworldly but healthy anyway?
to quote "a face that only a mother could love"
 

prosfilaes

Adventurer
however is it really an issue if 90% of the kids are otherworldly but healthy anyway?

I wasn't quite going for 90% ... which aids the nondetection of Nystul's Magic Aura and the even more popular You're Never Going to Get a Detect Magic So Why Waste a Nystul's amulets, as well as the amulet sharing (of questionable efficacy).

The Qlippoth-tainted template in Blood of Fiends is guaranteed to kill the mother, and any obligate water-breathing template is likely to kill the child short of a bright and quick-witted midwife (and then what?). The templates are more of a PC upside; most children are likely to get the short end of the stick, the mutations without the bonuses. Best case scenario, the child is likely to be a creepy outsider all their life, with little chance of being hired by anyone of status, except for jobs that parents don't like to think about their children doing. I don't think there's going to be a lack of demand for the amulets.
 

Loonook

First Post
I wasn't quite going for 90% ... which aids the nondetection of Nystul's Magic Aura and the even more popular You're Never Going to Get a Detect Magic So Why Waste a Nystul's amulets, as well as the amulet sharing (of questionable efficacy).

The Qlippoth-tainted template in Blood of Fiends is guaranteed to kill the mother, and any obligate water-breathing template is likely to kill the child short of a bright and quick-witted midwife (and then what?). The templates are more of a PC upside; most children are likely to get the short end of the stick, the mutations without the bonuses. Best case scenario, the child is likely to be a creepy outsider all their life, with little chance of being hired by anyone of status, except for jobs that parents don't like to think about their children doing. I don't think there's going to be a lack of demand for the amulets.

There is actually a spell in the old Book of Erotic Fantasy... Yes, I know. And yes, about that too.

The book is horrible in its description of sexuality. It is, however, a pretty decent guide to gestation... And I believe there is actually a 'repress bloodline' spell within that was around 3rd level. I'd put that at about right considering that genetic testing can run to the thousands of dollars (15-45GP) and then of course the cost of treatments and things... I'd put it at about 3rd level, meaning it costs a minimum of 150 GP.

150 GP puts it at the breaking point; a Commoner peasant who does crafting cross-class as a lifestyle would have to invest over half their yearly earnings in the effect... an unskilled laborer has no shot at it. Our Smith from previous examples would be able to afford it, but at a pretty high price to advancement :).

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

Loonook

First Post
So I got a lot of calculations done today using Magic Medieval Society discussions of taxation, and brought all the numbers for calculation and valuation of the D&D Gold Piece versus a USD. Here's the numbers below:

Calculation of GP Value based on Net Income of Peasant Farming Family (2 Adults, 4 Children) working a 20 acre plot after calculating available arable land past subsistence:

Initial Income In Field:

  • 4.6 acres
  • 20 bushels/Acre
  • 92 bushels
  • 3680 ducats ~ 1314.28 GP

Expenses

  • Laborers (total labor): 13 sp/day 9 days: 117 sp, 11.7 GP
  • Carriage 24 miles, 6 carts, 3 days each: 172.8 GP
  • Teamsters (3 days): 3.6 GP
Subtotal: 1126.18 GP

Taxes

  • Taxes and costs including scutage, tithe, rent, maintenance, avg: 45% gross + Rent 50 GP). 556.78 GP
Subtotal: 569.39 GP (2600 lbs to process)

Sale of the Grain:

  • Processing costs (1 sp/200 lbs): 1.3 GP
  • Sales Price to Merchant on site (50% value): 284.05 GP
Subtotal: 284.05 GP

Meager Lifestyle: 96 GP for 4 ‘adults’.
Total: 188.05 GP total profit.

Dollar Valuation


  • 50% US Poverty value: $15,420 est.

Value in dollars of GP: $82 (81.999 rounded up).


Values of Common D&D Items:

  • Longsword: 15 GP (1230 GP)
  • 1 Pint Oil: $8.20
  • Paper/sheet: $32.80
  • Parchment/sheet: $16.40
  • Miner’s Pick: $246
  • Table Wine: $16.40/6L
  • Bottle of Wine (Fine): $820.00/750mL
  • Guard Dog: $2,050.
  • Animal Feed/Day: $4.10
  • Donkey: $656.
  • Warhorse: $16,400.
  • Saddle (Riding): $2,460.00.
  • Stabling (day): $41.00.
  • House: $410,000.00.
  • Magic Longsword +1: 189,830.
  • 20 mile carriage ride/person: $49.20.

Based on these numbers I have a lot of new calculations to do in the various threads I am discussing valuation of the D&D economy in... Also these taxes cover the right of a freeholder to not have to perform in the service of the King as part of his guard! This frees up the 1st level Commoner to remain a 1st level commoner and scrape by... I am hopeful that through my painful time in calculating you guys have learned a bit about the balance of the D&D economy and how it works :D.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

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