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Vancian Magic, I love it.

Do you also love Vancian magic?

  • Yes! My vancian magics, let me show you them.

    Votes: 73 35.1%
  • Yes! Also, all wizards should wear pointy hats.

    Votes: 51 24.5%
  • No, I hate magics and pointy hats.

    Votes: 39 18.8%
  • No, there is something wrong with me.

    Votes: 45 21.6%

shilsen

Adventurer
Mallus said:
<cranky>

No.

I'd prefer a system that makes spell casters more like artists and less like accountants. That incentivize creative spell usage, not just a miserly deployment of spell uses.

Resource management isn't the end-all and be-all when it comes to challenging players.

</cranky>
One of the things I like about the Vancian system is that it allows a focus on creative spell usage and/or a focus on spell uses. Just depends on the individual player(s) and DM to decide what they want to focus on. The system itself doesn't disallow either. One can make an argument that there isn't a great incentive towards creative spellcasting, but it's definitely possible, and I'm cynical (yet strangely, not cranky) enough to think that someone who wants to run a spellcaster without being creative is going to avoid being creative, whatever the system is. And there's a whole lot of people posting on these boards about creative spellcasting and how they do it in their games, without changing anything about the standard D&D spellcasting system.

And besides the above, the Vancian system is pretty darn functional, especially when it comes to players new to the game, and I find that a very significant bonus.

BTW, what's wrong with accountants? I spend my time around artists all the time. Man, I could stand to see some accountants!

Oh yeah, almost forgot...

*kicks cranky in the junk and takes his stuff*
 

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Moggthegob

First Post
I too love vancian magic. We make out all the time. She maynot be eciting butshes cositent and keeps me coming back for more and more.

I love the system. the only complaint my players have ever had is maintaining spellbooks but its not a big deal.
 



Dragon-Slayer

First Post
I use the old Atlantean/Compleat system from the early 80's from Bard Games and did during my 1e days as well. More realistic and it makes sense. I have added the idea of fatigue from the Morrigan Press version which is similar to True20.
 

jasin

Explorer
Something I wrote in email to Hong a while ago:

Vancian magic (by which I mean spell preparation) doesn't thrill me mechanically on its own merits, but it doesn't bother me (anymore; it was one of the most counter-intuitive elements when I first started D&D). And I like Vance enough that the connection is worth a lot in my eyes. I don't require D&D to model any genre or world wholly, but I do like it when I can see the references. I also like the bookish, ritualist aspect of the spellbook-using spell-preparing wizard.

If I were messing with magic for 4E, I'd dump the sorcerer, at least as it is now, and look more towards the beguiler, dread necromancer and themed classes like that. In the end, offering sufficient choices might result in something more like sorcerer + domains; separate classes for everything might be quite unwieldy. But IMO the sorcerer's role should be the themed arcanist, as opposed to the wizard as a generalist use-what-works arcanist.

For 4E wizards, I'd like to see class features similar to reserve feats: a master arcanist who cools his drinks with ray of frost, since he doesn't have to worry he might need detect magic or message later on.

As far as aesthetics go, I wouldn't mind dropping spell preparation from the divine casters (my inner Vance fanboy would be perfectly content with just wizards), but they seem to be the ones who need it the most from a playability perspective: you can't expect a sorc-like caster to take raise dead or greater restoration, and you will be needing them, unless a lot more is changed.

Mallus said:
I'd prefer a system that makes spell casters more like artists and less like accountants. That incentivize creative spell usage, not just a miserly deployment of spell uses.

Resource management isn't the end-all and be-all when it comes to challenging players.
I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about, but when you say "more like artists", I think about systems like Elements of Magic and White Wolf's new Mage (I think?), where you build spells out of building blocks: a system where you could not only cast fireball as it is in D&D, but also have it deal more damage at the cost of affecting less of an area, or affect a larger area at the cost of increased casting time, or something similar.

Now, I have never played a game like this, so I might be wrong, but it seems to me that this doesn't really encourage creative spell usage. To an extent, in encourages creative spell design, but that's just another form of resource management. If you're trying to burn down an empty village, casting time is a resource you have, and area is what you want, so you trade. If you're trying to kill the one single guy right now, area is the resource you have, and damage is what you want.

What encourages creative spell usage, IMO, are the weird, multi-purpose spells which are a part of Vance's magic (but not necessarily "Vancian spellcasting" in the context of D&D, "Vancian" having become a shorthand for "spell memorization/preparation").

I would like to see more spells like Otiluke's freezing sphere (in concept, since the execution kind of meh for 6th-level spell): it's both an attack spell and a battlefield control spell, because it makes sense from the description of the effect. Glitterdust is both an attack spell (blindness) and an anti-miss-chance effect. Defenstrating sphere from Spell Compendium isn't so versatile, but it's like something straight out of Vance: a sphere of whirling air which attacks with a touch attack for 3d6 damage, and if you're Medium or smaller and fail a save, it flings you 1d8 x 10 ft. up and you take falling damage.

What I'd like to see is spell design going from concept rather than effect, and adding effects that fit, preferably multiple ones. Instead of going "I want a spell that deals 3d6 force damage with a touch attack, let's make it 2nd level, and say it's ghostly ram which charges the target" I'd like "I want a ghostly ram that charges the traget, let's say it can deal 3d6 force damage, or bull rush at +4 +1/4 caster levels, but it must follow normal charging rules, so let's make it 2nd level". Effects which (unlike in my example) aren't obviously linked, like glitterdusts "causes blindness" and "negates concealment" get bonus points!

That's not the direction D&D has been going, though. Compare 3.0 command to 3.5 command, and 3.0 emotion to 3.5 rage, crushing despair, good hope, fear (I think those were under emotion in 3.0?). So far, the move has been towards simpler, discrete effects.
 

Herobizkit

Adventurer
For D&D Core, the mechanics used for psionics far far far outweight the benefits and utility of Vancian magic.

Outside core, Elements of Magic and its partner, EoM: Mythic Earth, for the win.
 

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