Vancian Magic, I love it.

[jmucchiello]

That's a [Mindset] effect you're thinking of! [Reserve] effects are more like stuff a Warlock could do.

Okay, I used the wrong term. Now back to my question:

How do these things work in actual play? I would think they increase the bookkeeping enormously. GM: "Make a Diplomacy check." W: "<rolls, adds, announces> 23, no wait I have to check my spell list <sotto voce> no, no, +1, no, no, no, no, no, +1, no, no, +3, do they stack? hmmm <aloud> I think 26."

 

[jasin]

How do these things work in actual play? I would think they increase the bookkeeping enormously. GM: "Make a Diplomacy check." W: "<rolls, adds, announces> 23, no wait I have to check my spell list <sotto voce> no, no, +1, no, no, no, no, no, +1, no, no, +3, do they stack? hmmm <aloud> I think 26."

How is that different than what happens with buff spells?

Obviously, if all spells were mindset spells, it would increase bookkeeping, since you'd have to check both the spells have cast and the spells you have prepared, but we're talking about remodeling the magic system, so presumably you could make other changes to simplify play: cut down on the number of different bonus types, reduce the number of spells per day and therefore the number of mindset bonuses you'd have to track...

 

[BASHMAN]

I love Vancian magic too. That's why it was so hard to... put it down. But Vancian magic had hurt too many people, so it needed to be done. It was quick and painless-- Vancian magic didn't know what was coming.

Now I have magic points to bridge the gap.

 

[IamTheTest]

I love Vancian magic...but Im not in love with Vancian magic.

 

[Nifft]

How is that different than what happens with buff spells?

Won't be dispelled unexpectedly.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rabelais]

I swear, it's not you. You've been great. I couldn't have brought down the Cliffs of Chaos without you. Remember the good times we had in the Demonwweb Pits? I'll never forget how you helped me. It's.... it's just that we've grown apart. I'll never forget you Vancian Magic. I hope that when you see me tooling around in my fancy sports car with my well thumbed copy of Expanded Psionics Handbook you can some how forgive me.

 

[jdrakeh]

I like Vancian magic. I do not like D&D magic. The two really aren't the same -- in Vance's novels, for instance, pretty much anybody can attempt to learn/cast a spell if they can read/study it (Cugel has done, this, though due to transposing words he found himself in a pickle). Likewise, memory is definitely a factor, though the 'fire and forget' aspect seems limited only to certain schools of magic (such as that which Rhialto practices) or extremely powerful spells.

 

[WarlockLord]

Well, we could argue that Cugel has UMD (as no doubt someone will do), but yeah, we don't really have a 'Vancian magic system'. We have a system where you know a lot of fire and forget spells that have to be prepared in slots, with (mostly) short durations, weak magic items, too much bookkeeping...

I'd rather see a spell points system, like psionics. I know I read an account of the A&E (I think) system - the one with the 3 spell levels, weave/unweave, etc. and it's better. We need to put the psuedo-Vancian system to death in 4e.

 

[Slife]

Re: 1. By "Core", I guess I mean meant products that sport the official Dungeons and Dragons label, as opposed to other d20 products. Silly, silly me.

According to the Expanded Psionics Handbook, the Expanded Psionics Handbook is core.


This is basically circular reasoning.

 

[Kristian Serrano]

Complete Psionic's backcover text also refers to Expanded Psionics Handbook as being a core book.

back on topic, I'd prefer a magic system that was identical to the Expanded Psionics system. In this model, you would know or prepare a single spell that can be augmented with spell points to apply the effects of Lesser, Greater, or Mass equivalents rather than consume additional slots. Additionally, a caster of higher levels would just as readily acquire a lower-level spell for the sake of the effects that can be applied with more spell points. It's a much more flexible system.