I've presented just about all I care to on this subject. No point repeating myself, right? But here we go one more time...
Originally posted by RaZZer99
Technically wizards can get all 9th level spells, but realisticly 9th levels spells don't grow on trees. Unless you're handing out them out like advertisement flyers, wizards wouldn't have much more than 8 of them. The flexibility of the Psion's PP make them even more versatile than a sorcerer, and thats why they are limited even more so than the sorcerer. You also forget the fact that Psions have twice as many skill points and much better skills selection as the Wizard or Sorcerer. They can provide benefit to the party even after they "run out of spells"
The fact remains wizards have the opportunity to learn every spell given the time and money. In a high-magic world or even within a small group of mages, it wouldn't be all that uncommon for a wizard to have a fairly huge spellbook. Check out the web enhancement for Tome & Blood for an example.
The "flexibility" you speak of is a bonus but they do have a limited number of PP. They can only throw so many of their highest-level power. For example, before bonus PP are calculated, a 20-th level psion can manifest 10 9th-level powers and a final 7th-level one, but that's it. An equal-level sorcerer can cast at least 6 spells per day...from each level. Are the 4 extra 9th-level manifestations (and the sole 7th-level power) a psion can use per day equatable to the 216 spells levels a sorcerer gets in addition to his 9th-level spells? I think you know my answer. I don't consider the ability to use a bunch of low-level powers per day all that relevant since the save DCs and effects of these powers are fairly inconsequential against high-level foes.
I'm not forgetting that official psions have twice as many skill points, either. My variant has the exact same number and his class skills closely mirror what the wizard or sorcerer receives.
As for your stats there, you're watering your psion down too much trying to get something from every stat. You can either dabble in everything, or you can concentrate on one, two, or even three specific areas. This was how the psion was designed. They are not meant to get every power under the sun.
But sorcerers can learn a wide variety of spells from any school at any level. Not just one or two. Yes, I know how psions were designed. I changed it. If you noticed, my table of powers know actually matches that of the sorcerer. I'm not at all bothered by the fact that my variant psion
may be better off than the sorcerer. As others have pointed out, sorcerers aren't all that great, anyway, compared to their wizardly counterparts.
If you think psions are limited then by your same reasoning a fighter lacks versatility. All they can do is fight really good. Yes, not every campaign has 32 point buy, but the psion is not anymore stat dependent than other classes.
No, that is not my reasoning. Compared to spellcasters, they are more stat dependent.
Psions may be a tad underpowered, but not nearly enough to make playing the class any less enjoyable. Heck, people debate that Bards and Sorcerers are underpowered. It all comes down to your campaign, and if you feel they need some more beef then by all means go for it. But thinking from a strictly standard campaign style portrayed in the core books, Psionics are just fine.
I agree, psionics as written would still be fun to play. My gripe is with the relative lack of power.
In fact if you look at some of their 9th level powers, they are quite impressive. Can wizards create their own demiplanes? Permanent slaves? Heal themselves? Emmulate any power up to 8th level? Lift 10 tons at long range?
Wish. 'Nuff said.
I think the point to all this is the term psionics means different things to different people. WotC can't satisfy everyone's imagination. To you it seems psionics should mean mind powers like telekinesis and telepathy only. You also seem to want the psion class to resemble the wizard in almost all respects (which BTW makes him feel pretty boring IMHO). This is fine if thats what you want.
I don't think psionics should just mean telepathy and telekinesis. I've been playing psionic characters since the days of 2nd edition, ever since I got my hands on the Complete Psionics Handbook back in '92. Psionics in 2e were more than just TK and ESP. What I'm saying is, like 2e, a psion's powers are a direct result of his mind's (not his body's) capability to draw upon an inner mental strength to manipulate his body and the world around him. A tough and healthy body helps this process, but it's primarily a mental effort.
In my opinion, the way psionics is structured (i.e. power levels) leaves no other choice but for psions to mirror wizards. Boring? Yeah, maybe a little, but I feel I'm forced to take this approach. I think the variety of psionic powers make up for it, though.
In regards to your revised psion I think its entirely too powerful. They have access to all powers with only one stat and have scaling damage.
Yes, just like every other spell-using class.
Eliminate the psychometabolism and psychoportation categories entirely. Lump Psychokinesis with Metacreativity and base it off Int. Lump Telepathy with Clairsentience and base it on Wis.
I'm not looking to eliminate any of the disciplines, or combine any of them either.
One stat to rule them all!
You know what, I've actually done the math on this one. I don't know why it was dropped. I honestly don't see the problem, especially when I'm using the divine spellcasters' table. Free scaling for psions leaves them pretty much neck and neck with the sorcerer. Short run? Maybe slightly above. Long run? Slightly below. Feel free to do your own number crunching and draw your own conclusions.
I've put in the leg work. This isn't something I just whipped up. In fact, I've probably spent more time than it's worth on this, but it's my game and I probably appreciate psionics more than the average D&D player does. If others want to use my variant, that's fine too.
If I come across a problem in my variant's design during gameplay, trust me, it will be adjusted.
One final note: You do realize a lot of the things you've suggested modify the existing psionic system, right? Ruling out undead using psionics is pretty major and goes against precedent set by pre-existing editions. Additionally, saying egoists and nomads don't receive aging penalties isn't "a minor fix" in my opinion. Druids don't receive this class ability until 15th-level. Monks don't until 17th.
With that, I'm outta here! Been nice debating with you, but I have a feeling nothing I say is going to change your mind about my variant and I haven't really been swayed by anything you've said either. No point tripping over ourselves.
Thanks and good gaming.
p.s. I strongly suggest you check out the Psi Forums on the Wizards site and MonteCook.com.
My point is, a campaign world and a game system requires a certain amount of synchroneity. Characters do age. There will be 70+ year old psions in the world. Does it make sense that there will be plenty of very old high-level, powerful NPC seers, telepaths, and shapers in that world, but no nomads, egoists, or savants of comparable age and power? Not to me.
