variant tumble rules

[Negative Zero]

i know there's a variant tumble rule where the check is opposed by a reflex save. i thought it was in Song and Silence, but i can't find it. can someone point me to it? my GM is of the opinion that even when using this variant rule, the tumbler still has to meet the 15 and 25 DCs, which seems silly to me. or am i the silly one?

~NegZ

 

[Hypersmurf]

There are three Tumble Variants I'm aware of.

The second one is the one you're talking about, from Song and Silence. Look in the contents - it's under "Tougher Tumble Checks", I think.

Your DM is right. If you miss the DC15, you provoke AoOs. If you make the DC - say you roll a 19 - then any creature can still make an AoO with a DC19 Reflex Save.

If you're tumbling through their space, then if you miss DC25, they get to clock you. If you roll a 27, they have to make a Reflex Save with a +10 bonus vs DC27. If they fail, you're fine; if they make it, they get to make an AoO.

-Hyp.

 

[Negative Zero]

*sigh* so what's the point of a contested roll, if there's still a DC? i thought that in a contested roll, the opponent set the DC. how is it that having two DCs for the same thing makes sense?

... or am i trying too hard to use logic in a fantasy game (as i am wont to do )

~NegZ

 

[Hypersmurf]

*sigh* so what's the point of a contested roll, if there's still a DC? i thought that in a contested roll, the opponent set the DC. how is it that having two DCs for the same thing makes sense?

There's a certain minimum level of skill required to Tumble successfully - DC 15. If you fail that, then you're just not good enough - anyone gets a free whack.

If you beat that minimum DC, then it's no longer a given than just anyone can hit you. Only if they're lucky enough or quick enough that their reflexes beat your evasive actions do they get a shot at you.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Incidentally, I would suggest to use another variant (e.g. Tumble vs Attack): this one is simple, and works almost like an opposed check Tumble vs Reflex, but IMHO it doesn't get along well with the DMG guidelines about using saving throws to SAVE from effects, while here is the tumbling character who tries to save.

The bad point of Tumble vs Attack is that it requires to maximize Tumble or get too difficult at higher level, while Tumble vs Reflex becomes easier.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Incidentally, I would suggest to use another variant (e.g. Tumble vs Attack)

That's the third one Monte's, I believe.

Note that it's an attack roll, not an attack - if the attack roll beats your Tumble check, he then has to make another attack roll if he decides to take the AoO to actually hit you.

-Hyp.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

You could also make a tumble check that replaces your AC (and you get +4 if you have Mobility) for the AoO.

 

[Fenris]

The Reflex save with a DC of the tumble roll is the tumble variant in Sword anf Fist I believe. A succesful Refelx save allows the AoO to occur.

 

[mikebr99]

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14772

Here are the discussions on all the options...


Mike

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Reflex save with a DC of the tumble roll is the tumble variant in Sword anf Fist I believe. A succesful Refelx save allows the AoO to occur.

Song and Silence.

S&F has opposed Tumble/Tumble, which is just weird

-Hyp.