[Venting] I feel a bit dirty...

[Odhanan]

Classes are FUN for old and new players because they're loaded archetypes you can play with, combine and refine into a character you want. That's different from "GURPS tax forms" in that archetypes are more defined : so more power to the newbie.

Alignments are fine for pretty much the same reason. Gamers just argue about fringe cases, IMO. Just defining the paladin's code of conduct better or make it clear the code of conduct is subject to interpretations by the DM, and then treating of the way to create a specific code of conduct for the paladin in the DMG would solve about 90% of the arguments about alignments.

Vancian system is FUN because it's resource management at its core without becoming tax counts of Mana Points. You just spend one spell, not 'magic points'. Now, the resource management part HAS to stay in DnD because its a defining part of the game. HOWEVER, reworking the management and exploiting new ideas that came up (Complete Mage and its feats, the Warlock of Complete Arcane, Auras... etc) to make the resource management more simple for the newbie could be great if it still carries as much flavor and possible options/permutations in the game.

 

[WayneLigon]

I just... lost control I guess... I get so sick of gamers Hating other games. It makes no sense! I mean, there are so many options, can't people just accept that there are other games that already do the things he wants, and go play those? Why do they all have to be "I game, but I'd never play this system unless..."?

I agree with the responder that those are the things that need changing when - not if - we get a 4E (or 3.75 or whatever they call the next iteration of D&D). They may not change in that manner and not in that exact way, but those particular things will be revised in some significant way. They might be another baby step like with 3.0/3.5, a means to wean people away from a system that causes more game-play problems than it fixes.

The only pipe dream here is that nothing will change or needs changing.

 

[Ghendar]

Nothing, and I really mean nothing, is "essential" in D&D. Let's face it, if WotC wants to scrap what has come before and rebuild from the ground up, they can certainly do it. They can get rid of whatever "sacred cows" they wish to get rid of.

However, if they do that, it won't be D&D to me anymore. Maybe it will be interesting. Maybe it will be fun. I certainly will check it out, but if it doesn't have classes, alignment, level progression just to name a few, I won't consider it to be D&D.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I've found I can't get worked up over much of anything when it comes to 4e speculation. WotC will do what the think is best for the game, regardless of my desires. If I think they made a total mess of it, I'll just keep using the 3e books for my games. I have enough 3e material to last a lifetime, and I'll be more than happy to purchase more as it goes into clearance racks to make space for 4e. I'll buy and use 4e stuff if I think it will make for a game that is more fun for me and my friends.

As for the specfic items ranted about:

Alignment: I would love to see alignment removed. Never liked it. I just tend to ignore it in my games when I can and fudge my way through the mechanics that get messed up without it.

Vancian Magic: Keep it, change it - as long as it is useable and fun, I don't have an emotional investment in the precise mechanics.

Classes: I think they ought to be kept. It is a nice way to understand the character. Without it DMs reviewing player choices would have to analyze the specifics and/or have the player explain it to them. If the player says "I'm playing a fighter," the DM knows enough to start with, and will get to know the specifics as they play.

 

[PhantomNarrator]

So what will 4th Edition be like? My hope is that they throw away some of the long-term issues that have plagued D&D. Personally, I’d like to see:

* Removal of the alignment system. Goodbye, clunky, antisocial mechanics.
* Removal of the Vancian casting system. Goodbye, clunky, bookkeeping mechanics.
* A classless system. “Classes” might be provided for ease of use, but the core system ought to be classless.

So, he wants to play GURPS? Seriously, just add a point buy instead of rolling stats and you have GURPS! I agree with Agent Oracle that these requests are farcical. For goodness sakes, the Unearthed Arcana already gives you a spell point and a classless mechanic! If you don't want to play with alignments, don't use them! But don't claim that the result will be anything like D&D, because it won't.

I get so sick of gamers Hating other games. It makes no sense! I mean, there are so many options, can't people just accept that there are other games that already do the things he wants, and go play those?

Hear, hear! I've never understood that prejudice either - it's like these people want to keep the "brand" of D&D to attract a large pool of players, but they don't actually want to play D&D. If you're going to make that many changes to your game, why not just learn a new system that incorporates those changes from the ground up in a coherent way? Sheesh! Why such loyalty to a game that doesn't deliver what they want? Pick up a copy of GURPS, fer cryin' out loud already, and leave my beloved classes, Vancian spells and alignments alone!

 

[JoeGKushner]

* Removal of the alignment system. Goodbye, clunky, antisocial mechanics.

The alignment system as it exist is stupid. I'm all up for opening it up with things like d20 Modern or other systems but as is... It's like we can't trust players without having some sort of mystical hold on them. "But your alignment man! Your alignment!" How many other games use alignment these days? Palladium?


* Removal of the Vancian casting system. Goodbye, clunky, bookkeeping mechanics.

Don't know about that. The ONE thing it's got going for it is that it's simple and it's a resource management system.

* A classless system. “Classes” might be provided for ease of use, but the core system ought to be classless.

I'd be there. If it went the rotue of BESM 3rd edition and provided templates for those who must have have their hand held and then provided open gaming for those who didn't feel that a wizard wielding a long sword was going to be the end of mankind, I'd be there.

Heck, I want a lot more changes. Bab as a skill, ability to customize how your saving throws progress, etc... etc... etc...

 

[JoeGKushner]

So, he wants to play GURPS? Seriously, just add a point buy instead of rolling stats and you have GURPS! I agree with Agent Oracle that these requests are farcical. For goodness sakes, the Unearthed Arcana already gives you a spell point and a classless mechanic! If you don't want to play with alignments, don't use them! But don't claim that the result will be anything like D&D, because it won't.

Heck, I thought he was talking about Hero. I mean seriously, EVERY game system out there uses an Alignment system. No, that was just easy sarcasm. Most game systems that I'm familiar with these days don't. They may note some alligence system or something but unless there's an actual game effect, usually in the form of taint, most systems don't bother with alignment.

In terms of "It's not D&D", how much is 3rd edition like 1st edition? Unification of the game system is a good thing in many ways because the game will react better to things introduced to it and will just plain make more sense. There's nothing wrong with making a game better. If not, we'd all still be playing OD&D.

The only thing I think classes and levels are useful for these days is making things easier on the GM in terms of designing encounters and with all the optional materials out nowadays, and add on the fact that CR/EL never worked perfectly to begin with, and I see holding onto the sacred cows as just doing it for nostalgia.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I think alignment could go, except for outsiders - I'm tired of defining characters so narrowly.

Vancian magic - sucks. It's hard to learn for new players, has no real connection to most magic in fantasy literature, and has no real attraction other than grognard nostalgia. You don't even have to lose a Vancian-type caster to appease the old guys if you switch to a MP system.

A Book of Nine Swords approach where you only have a handful of powerful, rechargeable spells could be an interesting way to go, though. Combat spells might be per encounter, where spells like teleport would have a daily limit.

Classes - Some variation of them should exist, but they should be a lot more open-ended than they are now.

 

[JoeGKushner]

It's interesting that so many people keep talking about "open ended classes" with one hand and not just using a point based system in the other.

I want the effect of this but not the actual game mechanics that could smoothly get me that.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Alignment is 100% worthless. Without a doubt, the kmost useless sacred cow kept, just because we're afraid of offending a mediocre game design from 30+ years ago.

What is it? A label for behavior. Cover up the alignment cestion on your cheet. Can you portray a character the same way? Yup! So alignment isnt needed to act in a certain way.

All it does is cause arguments, because its a crappy label. There are tons of threads that routinely pop up over what alignment characters in fiction and real life are. Problems occur when your DM declares your acts lawful, good, evil or what not, and you disagree. Your guy gets hit with a chaos hammer, and the DM says you're more neutral than chaotic, arguments ensue. If the DM gets to make value judgments about your character, IMO he may as well be playing by himself, or telling you how to act.

Vancian magic? Goodbye loser. Gygax tricked a horde of gamers into thinking you were somehow iconic to magic. Ask any person on the street, and you'll find vancian magic about as far from their concept of wizards as possible. Arcana Evolved has a decent pseudo vancian system I can accept for people who still want spell slots and levels.

Personally I'd prefer what Monte Cook suggested. Casters get at will abilities with a recharge mechanic. Fatigue or whatever, similar to ToB maneuvers. Casters have long, draining rituals that are usable limited times per day. Buffs are always on, and very limited. Thus ending the 4+ filler encounters per day that prevent casters from going nova in the "real" fight and give fighters the illusion of being worthwhile.

Classes can stay. I'd like to see more "alternative class features" in the core book though. Multiclassing can stay, but they need to come up with a fix for caster multiclassing that doesnt include a prestige class.