[Venting] I feel a bit dirty...

[PhantomNarrator]

Alignment is 100% worthless. Without a doubt, the kmost useless sacred cow kept, just because we're afraid of offending a mediocre game design from 30+ years ago.

. . . If the DM gets to make value judgments about your character, IMO he may as well be playing by himself, or telling you how to act.

Really? 100%? Well, you are entitled to your opinion, even if it's wrong.

Tell me, if D&D was so mediocre, why hasn't another game come along to knock it off its perch? Thirty years later, people still seem to prefer D&D. There must be more behind that than simple nostalgia. Plenty of people first discovered the game with 3.0/3.5, after all; does nostalgia factor much for them? But perhaps you just meant the alignment mechanic is mediocre? That would be a much more tenable position.

Can alignment be mishandled? Yes, of course - it is a qualitative, not a quantitative mechanic, therefore some things must necessarily be open to interpretation. However, it is not meant to restrict, it is meant to define the ethical boundaries of a character, and this it does admirably, albeit in broader strokes than some care for. Just like people find it hard to change aspects of their personality, characters should adhere to their alignment as a guideline to behavior. Consistently disregarding alignment should result in alignment change, after several notices from the DM.

You don't want to be limited by morality or the constraints of society? Fine! Then play one of the morally loose alignments! CN is usually the amoralists alignment of choice - they can avoid the danger of detect evil, while still being free to mostly act as they want. But to say that alignment is "useless" is just wrong. Society has standards - you can go against those standards, but don't be surprised if there are unpleasant consequences sometimes.

That said, I think you can get rid of the alignment system without too much trouble, but this will have a cascading effect on spells, monsters and certain classes you need to be aware of. I personally don't think it's worth the trouble. Besides, alignments as cosmic constants are almost iconically D&D. I would argue alignment is what gives D&D that high fantasy flavor, as opposed to the grubby low fantasy moral ambiguity of more sophisticated fantasy games.

 

[sckeener]

Alignment: I haven't seen any posts that say it should remain exactly the same, so I'd say it is fair game for changing. Personally I think d20 modern is the right way to go with allegiances at least to keep the alignment flavor while giving people the option of gray.

Vancian Magic: I hope it goes away someday, but I won't hold my breath. If it was kept, I'd like there to be 20 spell levels instead of 9. If it was done away with I'd prefer spells that temporarily drained abilities in order to cast (easy spells no drain...high level spells draining)

character classes: make them examples but have the underlining system be point based, so that it easy to see that the classes are balanced.

In the OP, it was mentioned 'can't people just accept that there are other games that already do the things he wants, and go play those?' well, I've encountered plenty of gamers that want all the changes mentioned in this thread, but they still want to play D&D.....usually just because it is the one game they know they can find other players for. Now if it was say a generic universal role playing system (ahem GURPS ) that players could configure to play any way they want then this whole discussion is moot as you could 'go play those'.

I already know the version of D&D that I'd like and it is Ars Magica.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Really? 100%? Well, you are entitled to your opinion, even if it's wrong.

Tell me, if D&D was so mediocre, why hasn't another game come along to knock it off its perch? Thirty years later, people still seem to prefer D&D. There must be more behind that than simple nostalgia.

There is.

About 98.9% of that is branding. Movies, computer games, dice games, and miniature games have made great use of the D&D brand name and even the "worlds of D&D" have been licensed for various things ranging from miniatures to iconic art.

If 4th edition is a completely different beast that uses Magic the Gathering as it's core game, it will still be the most bought game system. Perhaps not the most played, but easily the most bought.

 

[Ghendar]

Alignment is 100% worthless. Without a doubt, the kmost useless sacred cow kept, just because we're afraid of offending a mediocre game design from 30+ years ago.

If it were truly mediocre, as you say, I'm betting we wouldn't still be playing it 30+ years later.

Truthfully? Your opinion is what's worthless to me.

 

[sckeener]

Tell me, if D&D was so mediocre, why hasn't another game come along to knock it off its perch? Thirty years later, people still seem to prefer D&D.

not a good example. Just because a product is at the top does not mean it is the best.

The QWERTY keyboard layout is the top keyboard layout even though it was designed to slow typing to prevent keys from jamming. The Dvorak keyboard though faster has never really taken off. And then there is the betamax VS vhs.

I think D&D is still at the top not because of nostalgia, but simply because you can find more players who play it.

About 98.9% of that is branding.
If 4th edition is a completely different beast that uses Magic the Gathering as it's core game, it will still be the most bought game system. Perhaps not the most played, but easily the most bought.

agreed and since that is the case, I think they could change the system to be more friendly, more generic...that way the system would be easier to port to other settings/systems and easier for wotc to spread their license. If there was a legit D&D version of Ars Magica, I'd buy it in a heart beat.

 

[Maggan]

Tell me, if D&D was so mediocre, why hasn't another game come along to knock it off its perch?

It has been knocked back in markets other than the US (eg. Germany and Scandinavia). First mover advantage seems to be the deciding factor for what becomes the dominating roleplaying game in a specific market, and not so much which system it uses.

/M

 

[Ghendar]

not a good example. Just best(because?) a product is at the top does not mean it is the best.

You're right. (bold emphasis mine) Popularity does not always equal best. However, was PhantomNarrator saying that D&D is the best? I don't think he said that. What he said was "Thirty years later, people still seem to prefer D&D." He never said 30 years later D&D is still the best.

It has been knocked back in markets other than the US (eg. Germany and Scandinavia).
/M

Ah, but isn't there a difference between "knocked back" and "knocked off its perch?"
Knocked back implies that D&D is losing market share overseas.
Knocked off it perch implies that another RPG is now selling better than D&D overseas.

 

[PhantomNarrator]

About 98.9% of that is branding. Movies, computer games, dice games, and miniature games have made great use of the D&D brand name and even the "worlds of D&D" have been licensed for various things ranging from miniatures to iconic art.

Branding? Are you serious? You really think people still play D&D because of clever marketing? You think those crappy SSI games are the reason D&D is still the dominant RPG?

I think the extensive support the game has always received and especially its huge player base are more decisive factors - it's easy to find someone to teach you D&D, harder to find someone who knows GURPS or HERO or RuneQuest. D&D does the job well enough that few people feel motivated to learn another system. Even experienced role-players still prefer D&D by a wide margin. Just look at this forum for proof of that.

If 4th edition is a completely different beast that uses Magic the Gathering as it's core game, it will still be the most bought game system. Perhaps not the most played, but easily the most bought.

Unless it was a considerable improvement, I rather doubt that. There is still a sizeable percentage of gamers that still play 1st and 2nd ed. AD&D! And nothing has come close to the sales numbers of OD&D, including 3.0/3.5.

If WotC is silly enough to ditch traditional D&D elements and source material to exploit "brand synergy" with M:tG, I guarantee the results will be disastrous. Card players are a different breed from role-players - many will never make the switch and it will alienate a huge slice of the core fan base, just like many wargamers refused to ride the RPG wave. This might look like a good idea to the marketing department, but anybody who knows anything about the RPG market knows this wouldn't fly. It would make the AOL/Time-Warner merger or the Daimler-Chrysler merger look inspirational by comparison.

 

[Emirikol]

I don't normally write like this! Honestly! I just... lost control I guess... I get so sick of gamers Hating other games. It makes no sense! I mean, there are so many options, can't people just accept that there are other games that already do the things he wants, and go play those? Why do they all have to be "I game, but I'd never play this system unless..."? So... do I get my internet privileges revoked?

AO:

You have every right to get bent out of shape over this. There are lot of gamers who sit in the dark and bitch about things, but refuse to make useful suggestions.

That said, there are some silly sacred cows in D&D that "really" dont' need to be there. For those, most civilized DM's have things called HOUSE RULES. They don't run around telling other people to change the entire D&D game because of their own personal whines.

D&D is what is what it is and I don't consider it perfect, but I'm like you, I don't care to see someone else put D&D down to try to make their argument.

jh
P.s. I have people in my profession like this..they want everyone else to conform to their revisionist belief system and because they are loudmouth's they think they are right.

 

[Doug McCrae]

How many other games use alignment these days? Palladium?

Vampire/White Wolf - Nature/Demeanor. The clans are pretty much character classes too. Part of the reason for Vampire's success imo is that it so closely resembles D&D. Rifts using the Palladium system is very popular too.