D&D 4E Verisimilitude IMPROVEMENTS in 4e

[sukael]

The fact that the grid smashes right through the fourth wall with "magic movement vectors" and square fireballs is the ultimate verisimilitude killer for me.

I agree, though a house rule in favor of complexity seems like an easier option than one in the favor of simplicity, at least.

 

[billd91]

GREATCLUB SNEAK-ATTACKING: Oh yeah, I went there. I've heard arguments for it, but I really can't see how a rogue smacks someone over the head more "sneakily" than any other character. "Sneak attack" is a pinpoint strike to an unguarded vital area, not just hitting a dude really hard.

I don't agree at all with this one. Sneak attack means deliberately hitting someone in a spot that's more damaging than a random blow. The rogue might go for a bash on the side of the knee, temple, or plenty of other places capable of doing greater injury with any blunt weapon.
If the limit in 4e is as tight as the preview suggests, then I'm calling it less verisimilitude.

 

[Celebrim]

Not in nearly all settings, though, which is the problem.

No magical system is going to be suitable to all settings, because every fantasy setting with a well-developed magical system has a unique one. And, if the setting has a well developed divine magical system, this is doubly true. Probably the best best would be to replace the cleric or paladin class in this case with one more suited to the material you are attempting to simulate.

My feeling is that if you move to a non-Vancian system you are going to have even a harder time staying balanced and also maintaining versimilitude. This is because most fantasy settings have magic with big splashy effects, but few stated limitations on its use. Vancian is interesting in that its limitations are so prominent, but you can still have big splashy effects instead of limiting magicians and wizards to doing only small things (which is closer to the GURPS approach).

The Tome of Battle/Iron Heroes/4E solution is to make everyone a spellcaster. It's not a bad solution as far as it goes, so long as you are willing to have everyone be a spellcaster.

My thought is that there will probably be feats to allow sneak attack to be used with other weapons.

I've had the same thought. My thought is also that if there are not, then there need to be. Although, I'll be interested in seeing whether or not the provided feat allows sneak attacking with a great club.

 

[Imp]

Re these various points:

– healing, yes, pre-4e healing is not something you want to look at very closely if you don't want your mind to squirble. I dunno how much 4e's going to help this (although I'm starting to wonder if say clerics have the capacity to heal actual physical wounds at all, since hp=mojo and wounds aren't really represented, and secondly how I'd feel if there weren't really physical wound-healing spells)

– I don't like Vancian spellcasting either. But I stop thinking about verisimilitude as soon as I get to magic systems, so it's not a realism point for me.

– min-max, sure, though that's a DM table thing too.

– sneak-attacking doesn't represent anything to me except the ability to really make a blow count when the opponent's guard is down, and a greatclub is as good a tool as any for most situations.

– weren't people saying that in Epic 4e, which is where resurrection at least is supposed to come into play, PCs are expected to die quite often and it's no big deal?

 

[BryonD]

I agree that there are items in 4E that are improvements. But the overall result is very decidedly negative.

For instance, I agree with the concept of scaled healing being good. But the idea of everyone healing themselves on a regular basis way more than off-sets that gain in terms of fitting any kind of world model that clicks for me.

 

[sukael]

For instance, I agree with the concept of scaled healing being good. But the idea of everyone healing themselves on a regular basis way more than off-sets that gain in terms of fitting any kind of world model that clicks for me.

Except for the cleric and paladin, they're not healing themselves - they just weren't seriously hurt in the first place.

John McClane probably uses up all his healing surges for the day through the course of Die Hard, for instance. ;D

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

VANCIAN SPELLCASTING: You have I think two problems with Vancian spellcasting. Let's deal with the more general problem before dealing with the problem of divine spells.

My standing explanation for Vancian spellcasting is that no spell can manage to do something as powerful as create a ball of fire, or summon a lightning bolt, or move you from one location to another can in fact be cast in a handful of seconds, with a few words, or a simple gesture. If you want to do anything beyond the simpliest and weakest of magic (cantrips), you must in fact prepare the majority of the ritual ahead of time. The spell is then stored in a potential form within you in very much the same manner that you might store the spell in a staff, wand or anything else (such as a trap), awaiting the portion of the spell that serves as its trigger. To actually cast the spell, you simply finish the ritual, usually by proving what amounts to variables that specify the target of the invocation. This allows magic to be useful in a combat situation where otherwise it would not be.

Generally, preparing and casting a spell weakens the arcane caster in such a way that they cannot perform more rituals until after they have rested.

Okay, this was my basic understanding too. But why can't (say) a level 20 spellcaster just prepare a dozen level-9 spells instead of like 4 level-9 spells and a dozen level 2-3 spells? I don't think this is a nitpick; it's actually pretty common to see a high-level wizard say, "Gee, I'm too tired to cast another Firebal, but I can cast Magic Missile 135 more times!"

 

[BryonD]

Except for the cleric and paladin, they're not healing themselves - they just weren't seriously hurt in the first place.

Well that simply makes it even more difficult to define what HP means. So I won't argue if that explanation works for you. But it doesn't cut it for me and even if it did it would be a move away from versimiltude.

 

[Celebrim]

Okay, this was my basic understanding too. But why can't (say) a level 20 spellcaster just prepare a dozen level-9 spells instead of like 4 level-9 spells and a dozen level 2-3 spells? I don't think this is a nitpick; it's actually pretty common to see a high-level wizard say, "Gee, I'm too tired to cast another Fireball, but I can cast Magic Missile 135 more times!"

To avoid being nitpicky, granted. Or conversely, why can't he prepare and cast 80 odd magic missiles instead of tiring himself out preparing and casting that one fantastically hard 9th level spell?

I think the 4E version of this question is going to be something along the lines, "How come if I know several spells, must I use the same one every round? If I can cast this puppy 10000 times a day without tiring, why can't I just swap it out occasionally for that spell I cast 10000 times a day yesterday.", or else, "I'm a 30th level wizard, how is it that I still just know 12 different spells?"

 

[sukael]

If I can cast this puppy 10000 times a day without tiring, why can't I just swap it out occasionally for that spell I cast 10000 times a day yesterday.

It looks like the only "prepared" spells might be the per-day ones.

"I'm a 30th level wizard, how is it that I still just know 12 different spells?"

Characters are going to be getting one power per level, apparently, so that's at least 30 or so spells (not counting ones gained from feats or magic items or whatever).