D&D 4E Verisimilitude IMPROVEMENTS in 4e

[Kahuna Burger]

By the same token, a per-encounter spell might stress certain particular chakra points / mental faculties / etc. for spellcasters, so it can't be repeated too quickly.

In The Book of Night With Moon, which is nice light fantasy for people who like cats, wizards have to deal with what they call "burn in" - if you try to cast the same spell too many times in a row, it's effectiveness begins to decrease. Like most magic systems I like, it still couldn't be replicated by any version of D&D, since it has a "grammatical" magic system and the attendant on the fly spell creation, but it did have "per encounter" magic as a natural part of the story.

While we're talking believable magic, I know folks hate the death spiral effect that can com from a condition track, but the biggest versimilitude killer in D&D for me is the part where a magic user (or worse yet psion) basically says "I can't do anything else supernatural today, but am otherwise completely unimpaired." I'm fine with the idea of having limits to how much magic you can do in a day, but when you can't do any more it should be because you are stumbling along on your buddy's shoulder with the worst migraine of your life, and even then, maybe you could reach deep down and try one more spell, it's just that there's a decent chance of it giving you an aneurism whether you succeed or not. Magical power as "ammo" tracked separately from your physical state just doesn't work for me.

 

[Lizard]

For example, the OP makes a cogent argument about how the same magic heal has widely different simulationist effects based on its target in 3.X, and 4E (presumably) avoids this. (Has anyone actually tried to use a Healing Prayer on, say, a peasant?) OTOH, 4E is certainly less simulationist with the by-now oft-heard refrain of 'new day, full hps' (with the attendant implicit statement that you have no wounds).

I think that 4e deals with the "How do you heal from a sword thrust?" question by saying, flat out and absolutely, "You don't." The only time a sword goes through your chest is when it's the blow which kills; if you are just knocked out and then recover, it's like Frodo in the movie being hit with the troll spear; no actual wound occurred. ALL damage is bruising, stress, pulled muscles, etc.

And I can live with that, I really can, if it's clear and explicit this is the case.

 

[ferratus]

I think that 4e deals with the "How do you heal from a sword thrust?" question by saying, flat out and absolutely, "You don't." The only time a sword goes through your chest is when it's the blow which kills; if you are just knocked out and then recover, it's like Frodo in the movie being hit with the troll spear; no actual wound occurred. ALL damage is bruising, stress, pulled muscles, etc.

And I can live with that, I really can, if it's clear and explicit this is the case.

I think the Goblin Picador puts to rest that theory though, given that they drive a harpoon into you and then pull you around the battlemap.

I think the Die Hard model is the best explanation for healing surges. John Maclean cuts his foot up and bleeds out 2 pints of blood, dragging himself into the washroom. He sits in the bathroom and washes his foot in the sink, smokes a cigarette, and has a supportive chat with the police sargeant. The next scenes he is running up and down stairs, then jumps off a building and kicks through an office building glass window 2-4 stories down. That's pretty much what a healing surge looks like. For those that say "Die Hard" isn't realistic... well neither is a human fighting a fire-breathing monster the size of a T-Rex with a sword.

You can do some things to make overnight less difficult to swallow though. For example, if you have a cleric in the party, he does a special "healing liturgical service" at night which restores your wounds. After all, Vancian magic is dead for clerics, so all he really needs to do that liturgical service which he doesn't have time to do in the midst of battle.

If you don't have a cleric in the party, it only really becomes a problem if you try to sleep in the middle of a monster infested dungeon. Healing surges are designed to keep you going until you can clean out a complex. So when you get back to town, the village cleric will patch you up or the DM can make some downtime available to recover from wounds. Sure, healing overnight will be a problem if you are sleeping in the middle of the dungeon, but if the DM is allowing you to do that (which all DM's did in past editions or you had a TPK) and the monsters don't keep attacking you for eight hours that's already just as implausible as healing overnight.

I guess you can make a complaint that you don't like action roleplaying, but if your wizards are going to do something more powerful than shining lights into people's eyes or summoning a really fast horse you need to have some wire-fu for the fighters.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

The Tome of Battle/Iron Heroes/4E solution is to make everyone a spellcaster. It's not a bad solution as far as it goes, so long as you are willing to have everyone be a spellcaster.

This really is the wrong way to think of things. In 4E, the solution is to a different problem than that spellcasting power, the problem being addressed is the dramatic events in RPG combat. Everyone gets to have dramatic events in combat and the rules limit those events. PC fighters can, in the game world, use all kinds of techniques over and over again but in terms of dramatic events, there is only one daily payoff.

 

[BryonD]

I think the Die Hard model is the best explanation for healing surges. John Maclean cuts his foot up and bleeds out 2 pints of blood, dragging himself into the washroom. He sits in the bathroom and washes his foot in the sink, smokes a cigarette, and has a supportive chat with the police sargeant. The next scenes he is running up and down stairs, then jumps off a building and kicks through an office building glass window 2-4 stories down. That's pretty much what a healing surge looks like. For those that say "Die Hard" isn't realistic... well neither is a human fighting a fire-breathing monster the size of a T-Rex with a sword.

Realistic and versimitude are not the same.
Neither option is realistic. No problem.
Being mauled by a fire-breathing monster the size of a T-Rex and then recovering the same way MaClean recovers from a cut foot is also not versimiltude.

None of this claims that 3E was better in terms of HP. HP is wonky.
But, claims that 4E is one bit better don't wash for me.
And, for me, the idea that everyone can heal themselves over and over is a big negative.
(And if they are not healing themselves, then why is it called "Healing surge"?)
So it is a big price paid for zero gain.

 

[ferratus]

But, claims that 4E is one bit better don't wash for me.
And, for me, the idea that everyone can heal themselves over and over is a big negative.

The thing that everyone is ignoring is that this is to prevent sleeping in the middle of the dungeon. It is to prevent everyone leaving halfway through to run back to town and healing up. Now, you could have a series of combats that don't threaten the players until you get the big boss fight, but that isn't really fun. Healing surges are as much confidence surges as anything else.

Anyway, there is a simple solution to the problem if people don't like self-healing. Ensure that a paladin or cleric is in the party at all times. You pretty much had to have a cleric in the party anyway in prior editions, so this won't be a change in play style. Whenever the cleric or paladin has an opportunity to rest for the day, he holds a liturgical healing service that puts everybody back up to full hit points. It takes about 30 minutes to complete, and refreshes everyone for the following day. Not a single rule has to be changed.

For the rest of us, bring on the action movie cinematics where the hero gets his beat downs but still keeps on going.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Fewer Xmas tree decorations.
Wizards no longer omnipotent.
Fewer 15min days.
No need for four encounters every adventuring day.
Powers and healing surges match the rhythm of real fights.

 

[Kordeth]

I think that 4e deals with the "How do you heal from a sword thrust?" question by saying, flat out and absolutely, "You don't." The only time a sword goes through your chest is when it's the blow which kills; if you are just knocked out and then recover, it's like Frodo in the movie being hit with the troll spear; no actual wound occurred. ALL damage is bruising, stress, pulled muscles, etc.

And I can live with that, I really can, if it's clear and explicit this is the case.

I prefer to think of it as "How do you heal from a sword thrust? You don't. But you're so hardcore you can ignore that sword thrust and keep going at full fighting trim until you have time to get back to town and heal up properly."

 

[hong]

MAJOR verisimilitude enhancement: all major mobility magic kicked upstairs to the paragon tier.

 

[Henry]

None of this claims that 3E was better in terms of HP. HP is wonky.
But, claims that 4E is one bit better don't wash for me.
And, for me, the idea that everyone can heal themselves over and over is a big negative.
(And if they are not healing themselves, then why is it called "Healing surge"?)
So it is a big price paid for zero gain.

Unfortunately, the alternative is something like 1e, where you heal 1 hit point per day, and spend a month out of commission for every big fight that you're in. Whatever the solution is needs to support more than one combat a week, or the ability to easily roll up clones a la Paranoia.