How so? A versatile weapon can be used as either a one or two-handed weapon, gaining the benefits as either, depending on how it's used. The benefit is still there (particularly for a Swordmage because they get an AC bonus from simply freeing their off-hand).
Versatile Weapons and Power Attack
- Thread starter Moon-Lancer
- Start date
MyISPHatesENWorld
First Post
Benefit 1: A swordmage can get X bonus and Y bonus in the same round when using a versatile weapon. FAQ.
Benefit 2: A sword mage can get X bonus or Y bonus in a round when using a versatile weapon. House Rule.
The house rule removes Benefit 1 and replaces it with Benefit 2. To boil it down further, you've denied him Bonus X or Bonus Y, both of which he is supposed to get by the rules, every round that he uses his weapon for the entire life of his character.
James McMurray
First Post
If you have a player who insists on squeezing every ounce of power from the rules like that you only have a few choices:
1) Let the house rules fly. You'll need a lot of them, because this edition was written to be played, not lawyered. When a determined lawyer picks it up, problems happen.
2) Walk away. No amount of house rules is going to stop the underlying behavior.
3) Accept it and (possibly) change your GMing to account for it. There's no such thing as an "I win" combination, and the GM has more than enough ways to counter any loophole, ranging from simply changing the underlying numbers of his monsters to keep the math the same, to using the same tactics against them.
Danceofmasks
First Post
Anything short of perfect order is fail, in any edition, and in any circumstance, whether in a game or real life.
Now, the houserule in question is fine and reasonably balanced ... just ... it, and any other housrule, must be implemented, transparent, and fully understood before the character creation process.
And in so doing, assuming all parties involved are sufficiently intelligent, you have perfect order.
Now, I acknowledge that truly lawful (read: mechanical) people are quite rare, and so rather than have unrealistic expectations, I will simply be magnanimous and accept others' inevitable failure.
Now, the houserule in question is fine and reasonably balanced ... just ... it, and any other housrule, must be implemented, transparent, and fully understood before the character creation process.
And in so doing, assuming all parties involved are sufficiently intelligent, you have perfect order.
Now, I acknowledge that truly lawful (read: mechanical) people are quite rare, and so rather than have unrealistic expectations, I will simply be magnanimous and accept others' inevitable failure.
MyISPHatesENWorld
First Post
Heh, you just claimed a mechanical change to a non-mechnically deficient rule on the basis of ""I don't like it." that results in a net loss to the player without compensation is reasonably balanced. And you did so while presenting yourself as truly mechanical.
Congratulations, you've not only joined the others whose failures you are so magnanimously accepting in failure, but you're their leader.
Hail Danceofmasks, Emperor of the Failing Others!
Danceofmasks
First Post
I claimed no such change.
What I have done is decreed that houseruling must not be done on the fly.
Games I run never deviate from RAW.
What I have done is decreed that houseruling must not be done on the fly.
Games I run never deviate from RAW.
That is something I sincerely doubt.
There's a difference between a two-handed weapon(object) and wielding a weapon with two-hands(style). The Players handbook has seperate catagories for 1-handed weapons and 2-handed weapons.
Feats and powers such as Power Attack and Reaping Strike cleary state extra damage from using a two-handed weapon(object).
For things such as the Bloodclaw weapon it says you get triple damage for wielding a weapon with 2 hands(style). This is where your Versatile will come into effect.
Feats and powers such as Power Attack and Reaping Strike cleary state extra damage from using a two-handed weapon(object).
For things such as the Bloodclaw weapon it says you get triple damage for wielding a weapon with 2 hands(style). This is where your Versatile will come into effect.
Last edited:
Medicine Man
First Post
There isn't really any literal reading of the rules that 100% satisfies common sense on the issue of versatile weapons and their interaction with exploits, feats, etc; hence the reason for WotC Mearl's opining on the subject.
If you disregard Mearl's opinion as non-canonical the most literal, brute-force reading of the rules are as follows:
****
Q1: Does a fighter retain his one handed Fighter Weapon Talent bonus when wielding a versatile weapon in two hands?
A1: Yes.
Reason: PH76 -- "Choose either one-handed or two-handed weapons. When using a weapon of your chosen style, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls."
No where in the rules does it say that a versatile weapon changes weapon class when you chose to use it a different way.
Collateral: A two-handed specialist Fighter cannot get his bonus using versatile weapons two-handed either, which sucks for him.
****
Q2: Do you gain the extra bonuses awarded to two-handed weapons when using the Reaping Strike Martial Exploit or Power Attack Feat?
A2: No.
Reason: PH77 -- "If you are wielding a two-handed weapon, ...", not "If you are wielding a weapon two-handed."
PH199 -- "(or a +3 bonus to the damage roll with a two-handed weapon).", not "or a +3 bonus to the damage roll if you are wielding a weapon two-handed."
****
I freely admit that the above is nit picky to the point of inspiring homicidal feelings but it is the 100% literal reading of the RAW in the PH1. As I said at the start of this post, 100% accurate and 0% satisfying.
If you are fundamental purist regarding the rules, this is how you should resolve the issue.
If you choose to heed Mearl's unofficial guidance on the topic, then you have some wiggle room but, as a previous poster stated, you should inform your players of your house rules before they create characters.
(to be continued)
If you disregard Mearl's opinion as non-canonical the most literal, brute-force reading of the rules are as follows:
****
Q1: Does a fighter retain his one handed Fighter Weapon Talent bonus when wielding a versatile weapon in two hands?
A1: Yes.
Reason: PH76 -- "Choose either one-handed or two-handed weapons. When using a weapon of your chosen style, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls."
No where in the rules does it say that a versatile weapon changes weapon class when you chose to use it a different way.
Collateral: A two-handed specialist Fighter cannot get his bonus using versatile weapons two-handed either, which sucks for him.
****
Q2: Do you gain the extra bonuses awarded to two-handed weapons when using the Reaping Strike Martial Exploit or Power Attack Feat?
A2: No.
Reason: PH77 -- "If you are wielding a two-handed weapon, ...", not "If you are wielding a weapon two-handed."
PH199 -- "(or a +3 bonus to the damage roll with a two-handed weapon).", not "or a +3 bonus to the damage roll if you are wielding a weapon two-handed."
****
I freely admit that the above is nit picky to the point of inspiring homicidal feelings but it is the 100% literal reading of the RAW in the PH1. As I said at the start of this post, 100% accurate and 0% satisfying.
If you are fundamental purist regarding the rules, this is how you should resolve the issue.
If you choose to heed Mearl's unofficial guidance on the topic, then you have some wiggle room but, as a previous poster stated, you should inform your players of your house rules before they create characters.
(to be continued)
Medicine Man
First Post
If you follow WotC Mearls' advice on the topic of versatile weapons, then you necessarily have to navigate some wiggle room and craft some house rulings on the gray area.
He says: "As a rule of thumb when using a versatile weapon, default to giving the player the most beneficial reading of a rule or situation regarding one or two handed use."
Ie: Eat your cake and have it too. EYCAHIT.
Therefore, as Mearls states: "So, the fighter would still get his weapon talent, and he could also gain the benefits of reaping strike."
****
How far you take this is up to you as a DM. I personally don't have any problem with it, as most of the one-handed vs two-handed weapon decisions for the Fighter class involve clear trade-offs, but this is the realm of my opinion; I leave you all to form your own on that.
He says: "As a rule of thumb when using a versatile weapon, default to giving the player the most beneficial reading of a rule or situation regarding one or two handed use."
Ie: Eat your cake and have it too. EYCAHIT.
Therefore, as Mearls states: "So, the fighter would still get his weapon talent, and he could also gain the benefits of reaping strike."
****
How far you take this is up to you as a DM. I personally don't have any problem with it, as most of the one-handed vs two-handed weapon decisions for the Fighter class involve clear trade-offs, but this is the realm of my opinion; I leave you all to form your own on that.
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