Vertical Power-Uses

[Baumi]

I have two Questions regarding vertical Movement and Powers:

1) If you have a close blast 5 (like Dragon Breath) does it effect a 5x5x5 Area or 5x5x1 (height 5 vs 1)?

2) If you use Thunderwave on an flying Monster above (lets say 2 squares away and 3 squares up), can us push it downwards?

 

[Mengu]

1) If you have a close blast 5 (like Dragon Breath) does it effect a 5x5x5 Area or 5x5x1 (height 5 vs 1)?

While I don't think it's explicitly specified anywhere, burst is defined as "every square within X squares of the origin", so a burst 2 would be 5x5x5. It follows to reason that blasts would work the same way (at least it's the way we play).

2) If you use Thunderwave on an flying Monster above (lets say 2 squares away and 3 squares up), can us push it downwards?

As long as every square you push the creature increases the distance between you and it, yes, you can push it diagonally downwards.

There are some perhaps unintended consequences of 3d use of area effects to be aware of though. For instance when fighting large creatures, it becomes trivial to avoid your allies with bursts and blasts.

 

[Amaroq]

As long as every square you push the creature increases the distance between you and it, yes, you can push it diagonally downwards.

I thought that, by RAW, the forced movement is limited to the horizontal plane. Did I miss an errata?

From PHB 285, "Forced Movement":

Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies how many squares you can move a target. You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically.

I think the plain intent of this is that you can't push a monster two squares up in the air, and expect it to take 1d10 falling damage, but it does seem to imply that you can't apply any form of vertical movement to the target.

That said, my group plays the same as Mengu describes: we have a couple melee specialists who are basically useless against flying creatures, so a battle against a flying artillery becomes a game of the rest of the party trying to pull, slide, immobilize, etc, to get the flying artillery down where the melee pair can hit them and keep them there.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think the errata coming is: you cannot force a creature to use a movement mode which is not available to him...

So a flying creature can of course be pulled down or up!

 

[Obryn]

Yeah, 4e is kinda behind the curve when it comes to 3-D battle maps. Flight is less common than it was in mid-level 3e, mind you, but 4e still doesn't cope well with it.

I think you can do two things, and it will work great:

(1) Assume every square is really a cube
(2) Use common sense with forced movement. IMC, I'm fine with forced movement pulling someone off a cliff, but not with forced movement pushing them up a cliff, absent a fly speed. I'd just read the "no vertical forced movement" clause as "just don't be silly about it."

-O

 

[Mort_Q]

I think the errata coming is: you cannot force a creature to use a movement mode which is not available to him...

So a flying creature can of course be pulled down or up!

With that errata:

A flying creature can be pulled upward, if you're above it.

A flying creature can be pulled downward, if you're below it.

A flying creature can be pushed downward, if you're above it.

A flying creature can be pushed upward, if you're below it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

exactly!

 

[Baumi]

Thanks for the fast Answers! 8D