Vindictive, fair DMing, or is 3.5 too Lethal ??

[sumi]

After gaming for nearly 25 years I am begining to be disillusioned. I had my character killed last night. As the major fighter (10th level Half Dragon Psionic warrior) I went rushing to the door to block off the enemy from entering the room. I charged to the door. Got my attack in and stood my ground. In front of me were 4 ice golems. Extremely tough as they have an AC 40 or AC 8 and damage resistance 33 (house rule), 2 attacks averaging about 17 points of damage and about 100 hp. How I have damage resistance 15, so I thought that as I had expanded and was blocking the door I could give the other party members the time to think of how to deal with the Wizard who was behind the ice golems.

Next goes up a Prismatic Wall exactly behind me. The wall goes from floor to ceiling and wall to wall. The Wizard is 16th. Now by reckoning the challengE rating of the ice golems would be about 11. This made the El about 20. If I am wrong please correct me. The party level is from 10-12 averaging at 11th. So the challenge rating is off the scale in the DMG.

Not that it made any difference. The Wizards command for his Ice golems was bull rush. The first failed as my expansion and animal affinity gave me strength 30. The second rolled 26 on his strength check. I rolled a total of 20. Into the prismatic wall. The save DC was 24. How at 10th level the base saves for a Psionic warrior are +7 Fort, +3 Reflex/Will. With a cloak of protection +4 I was given some chance. Faint. I managed to save against 1 effect, being turned to stone - fortitude.

Pretty much instant death. No chance of surrender nor of escape

The DM through the wizard, said the party was foolish and we should have talked. However, upto this point we hadn't encountered anything that was totally beyond us. When he fisrt stated that we should stop the attack on his cavern it was done through a Simulacrum. There was no knowledge of the power behind the door.The party is pretty much good, my character being LG and the wizard Chaotic evil. He then preceeded to tell the party that he would only deal with the party if it showed more sense in future and fulfilled a task for him. He then let the party leave to complete this task for him.

Vindictive?? Do you as DM's kill a party member, by cutting them of from the rest of the group. Then stop the fight and then continue along the plot line you hoped they would follow?

Vindictive?? That before that a wand of constitution drain (1d6) through ranged touch attack was always aimed at the same party member. (it just happened to be me by the way). I was lucky I only lost 5 Con. That I was in the area when the Wizard unleashed a Maximised fireball and quickened fireball. Save DC 21. Total damage 150+. I made both saves this time rolling a 15 and 17. Also I had Fire resistance 30.

Or is this sensible DMing. Making sure that the party is not killed. That the NPC's will go for the biggest creature. Take out the biggest threat. Make sure one member is killed and the party will learn from there mistakes.

Maybe I am paranoid. The thing I remember when I DM is to spread the risk. Yes, the beholder if it had sense would target all it's eyes at 1 or 2 people. However, to me this is a world of fantasy and adventure. The party are heroes. However, has 3.5 gone to far. The Ettins are barbarians. At 11th level, I am fighting 17th level barbarians with 7 attacks, raging and doing on average 25 points of damage. Massive damage is common place and characters have to save even if they have got 70+ hit points left. I had a 10th level character if he was maxed out could do 30 points of damage + 13d6 with a huge psi focused dissolving weapon great sword.

Everyone in this world seems to be as good as you or better. There is always a way that the DM can GET YOU. My previous character in this campaign lasted a long time (a few months). He was a Psion who put everything into AC, could reach over 35 if prepared. The DM introduced a Barbed Devil into the campaign as one of the Evil Cleric's henchmen. Barbed devil teleports no error next to Psion. Grapple attack, AC irrelevant, squeezed against Barbs on way to death. Saved by party killing him, fortunately. A few rounds later attacked by Cleric 14th + spell. Make save , take 30+ points of dam, go to minuses. Party member takes me round corner. As he does so, Blade barrier in area that I was dropped. No save - death. This was slightly easier to bear as the DM then did a total party kill.

My question in amongst the cleansing of my soul is - Am I the only one who thinks that 3.5 has gone to far. You spend longer rolling your character up than playing him/her. Am I romantising about AD&D1, as I had a character that lasted 12 years and it only died once. (Different DM by the way)

Or is that if you have a clued up DM that knows every trick in the book then you persevere with the game and try to avoid getting into any danger?

 

[MerakSpielman]

You made a bold move and it cost your character his life. Not every bold action results in glorious success, like it does in the movies.

That said, there's different ways of running a campaign. If you're playing a game where at first level the lowly goblins would trip, disarm, hide, and present a REAL threat to 1st level characters, and you've been scrabbling for your life and barely earning each XP since that point, then this should be more or less what you expected to happen.

It sounds like this is not the way the campaign usually goes.

In which case you had a perfect expectation that the NPCs wouldn't be THAT nasty to you.

I enjoy playing in a campaign where it pays to be totally paranoid and in fear of your life all the time. Not all people do. I think you should have a little chat with your DM about this, and try not to get too emotional or personal about it, since it is just a game.

 

[Khairn]

I have not found 3.5 to be lethal at all ... as long as the encounters are on a scale that the players can deal with.

From your description, it sounds to me that your GM was trying to get a point across to you, namely that the wizard and the power he could bring to bear was beyond your ability to handle. Many players have trouble identifying when its time to run vs stay and face the dangers of an encounter that is beyond their power.

Sorry, but IMHO its not the game system that is the problem here, its either your GM or the players.

 

[pennywiz]

or AC 8 and damage resistance 33 (house rule),

Tinker with the balance and you never know what is going to happen.

 

[Henry]

Actually, the DM does have an obligation to let his or her players know what to expect in terms of campaign toughness. In the example you gave above, it would seem that the challenge rating is off, but without more details it would be hard to say. Size of PC party, circumstances of the ice golems (were they summoned, etc.) all would have made a difference.

As for the lethality of 3.5, in some ways it's more lethal, and in some ways far less lethal than previous editions. One thing that's constant is that the DM and players communicate about what makes a good game for them. Some play groups are just looking for some "smash-and-grab", others are looking for immersive roleplay, and still others are looking for tactical challenges that they have to really work to overcome. Talk earnestly with the other players and DM together to find out if things are going the way everyone expects, and if not, why not.

 

[Psion]

I generally agree with Devyn. I don't find 3.5 to be particularly lethal as a baseline, but it's fairly easy to "dial it up."

The encounter described was 4 ELs above your character level, so it sounds like the GM meant for the encounter to be tough. Or wasn't keeping track of it. If you look in the DMG, it describes encounters 1-4 levels above the characters as being "especially dangerous since the players may not know they are outclassed."

In general, there are more instant death effects flying around at that level, but there is also more life restoration magic.

 

[Darkness]

damage resistance 33 (house rule)

I assume that's damage reduction 33/- (or 33/bludgeoning or something)? That's a bit much. More than 3.5 suggests to give (almost) any creature, even.

Vindictive?? Do you as DM's kill a party member, by cutting them of from the rest of the group. Then stop the fight and then continue along the plot line you hoped they would follow?

Probably not but maybe it wasn't planned this way.

The party are heroes. However, has 3.5 gone to far. The Ettins are barbarians. At 11th level, I am fighting 17th level barbarians with 7 attacks, raging and doing on average 25 points of damage.

25 damage per attack is not very much for a raging Bbn17. Did you mean 250 total in 7 attacks?

Everyone in this world seems to be as good as you or better.

Well, that's the DM's fault.

 

[Mystery Man]

Extremely tough as they have an AC 40 or AC 8 and damage resistance 33 (house rule)....

It's time to look for another game.

 

[Garnfellow]

After gaming for nearly 25 years I am begining to be disillusioned. I had my character killed last night. As the major fighter (10th level Half Dragon Psionic warrior) . . . [SNIP] Wizard is 16th. Now by reckoning the challengE rating of the ice golems would be about 11. This made the El about 20. If I am wrong please correct me. The party level is from 10-12 averaging at 11th. So the challenge rating is off the scale in the DMG.

I'm not familiar with ice golems (I think there's one in the Tome of Horrors), but let's say a Challenge Rating of 11 is right. Two CR 11 creatures is an EL 13 encounter, Four are an EL 15 encounter. A CR 16 creature and 4 CR 11 creatures would be an EL 17 encounter.

If your group consists of 4 11th (or even 12th) level characters, an EL 17 encounter /is/ considered pretty deadly. Four 13th level characters would be in for a pretty tough fight.

(Note that a 10th level half-dragon psychic warrior is the equivalent of a 13th level character. But you probably already know that.)

 

[Voadam]

I don't know that this would have been less lethal in 1e, a high level wizard was powerful then as well. a 16 d6 fireball was nothing for 10th level characters to sneeze at.